Episode Transcript

Apostrophes
Episode 92: January 18, 2008

Grammar Girl here.

Today's topic is apostrophes.

A couple of weeks ago Legal Lad did a show about homeowners associations. What you didn't hear was that behind the scenes, Steve, one of our copy editors, debated whether to put an apostrophe in the word homeowners.

 
This topic also comes up in the news when there's a writer's strike or teachers strike. Does the strike belong to the writers or teachers, or are the words writers and teachers adjectives that tell people what kind of strike is happening? If the words are possessive, we need an apostrophe, but if they're adjectives, we don't need an apostrophe.
 
It's a lot easier to see the difference when you're dealing with singular words. For example, if you're talking about green bean casserole, green is an adjective that tells people what kind of beans you use. But if Mr. Green has an award-winning bean at the state fair, you'd talk about Green's bean, with an apostrophe.
 
When the phrase includes a plural, as with writers strike, it can be a tougher call. I believe it's pretty clear that the writers don't own the strike, and that the word writers is there to tell us more about what kind of strike it is. So I'd leave out the apostrophe. On the other hand, I'd include the apostrophe in homeowners' association, at least when the homeowners actually own or control the association that manages their property.
 
An important point is that you should make sure you put the apostrophe after the final s. If you call it a homeowner's association (homeowner-apostrophe-s), you're talking about an association owned by one homeowner.
 
Here's an even trickier one: farmers market. The market is used by the farmers, populated by the farmers, but generally not owned by the farmers. So it seems reasonable to conclude that you don't use an apostrophe because the word farmers is there to identify the type of market. It's an adjective.
 
I should note that there are credible people who firmly believe the apostrophe is required in farmers market, writers strike and similar phrases. It's a contentious topic, and you may have to defend your choice to someone no matter which choice you make.
 
The key question to ask yourself when deciding whether you need an apostrophe is if you are talking about possession or ownership. If you are, you need an apostrophe. If you aren't, you don't need an apostrophe.
 
Web Bonus
 
Depending on the context, the same words may need to be punctuated differently. Here's an example: 
  • Did you mail the homeowner's insurance policy?
  • We now offer homeowners insurance.
 In the first sentence, we're talking about one insurance policy that belongs to one homeowner. It's possessive, so homeowner's needs an apostrophe.
 
In the second sentence, we're talking about the type of insurance the firm is now offering. Homeowners is a descriptive word—an adjective—so it doesn't need an apostrophe.
 
Also, some sources say to treat proper names and general phrases differently. Using that rule, you could argue for American Medical Writers Association, but also writers' group.
 
Administrative Stuff
 
This week the Mighty Mommy has a helpful show about how to talk to your kids about strangers. You can find that show and all the other great Quick and Dirty Tips podcasts at QuickAndDirtyTips.com.
 
While you're there you can also visit the online store where we sell t-shirts with all the show logos and fun sayings such as “Don't verbify me, bro,” and “Talk grammar to me, baby.” There's a banner at the top of the Grammar Girl page.
 
If you'd like to submit a question to the show, you can e-mail it to feedback@quickanddirtytips.com or leave a message on the voicemail line at 206-338-4475.

That's all. Thanks for listening.
 
Resources
 
The Chicago Manual of Style, Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 2006, section 7.27. http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org (accessed January 16, 2008).
 
Goldstein, N., ed. The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual, Reading: Perseus Books, 1998, p. 163. [Also see http://www.apstylebook.com/ask_editor.php May 12, 2006.]
 
Lutz, G. and  Stevenson, D. Grammar Desk Reference. Cincinnati: Writer's Digest Books, 2005, p. 255.
 
Moore, R. “Editors debate Scholars Walk,” UMN News, http://tinyurl.com/22frlg (accessed January 16, 2008).

Comments (30) for Apostrophes |  Subscribe to Comment

Jennifer Says:
8/5/2008 7:49:48 PM
What about the meeting I am going to have on Monday? It is Monday's meeting? Or Mondays meeting? I'm confused now. Help!
Habib Says:
6/26/2008 6:57:57 PM
In a recent episode a reality television show, one team spent several hours debating the need for an apostrophe in a made-up holiday called National Singles Day. I'm inclined to leave it out. The task was to invent a holiday and market a series of related greeting cards. Here is a clip I found on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHOvVVO2neI. Enjoy!
Jenn Says:
5/22/2008 7:56:55 PM
What about Children's/childrens as in books or programs. Children is plural but do the own the books, programs? Most examples use the apostrophe.
Bruce in Iloilo (the Philippines) Says:
4/26/2008 10:01:00 AM
Talking about apostrophe....A writer is stuck and admits it: "Here's an interesting twist. Staff at American Airlines pilots union (it is getting late - I've stared at this phrase for several minutes and can't decide where to put the apostrophe(s)!) have picketed the union itself. " From http://www.thetravelinsider.info/info/emails.htm Any thoughts? Before the "s" of "Airines"?
Kristin Says:
3/21/2008 1:42:44 AM
See, that's interesting, because I've always referred to it in my mind (I've yet to write it down) as a writers' strike. Anytime I feel that I can use "of the" and switch the two main words, I feel it is possessive. So it's the "strike of the writers;" hence "writers' strike." I suppose I get this from other languages where possessives are used by including the word "of." In Spanish, there's no way to say "Kris's book," therefore I must say "libra de Kris" or more formally, "libra de la Kris," where the literal translation is "book of Kris." Learning other languages has been massively useful in understanding how OUR language works, at least it seems so to me.
mw Says:
3/2/2008 9:55:04 PM
Also, in response to the many questions about newspaper grammar: remember, newspapers generally use AP Style, which is very different in some ways from standard American English grammar. You can always consult the very helpful AP Style Guide for newspaper related questions. It's a surprisingly good read. :)
mw Says:
3/2/2008 9:51:14 PM
Should there be an apostrophe in "girls education" as in "We support the expansion of girls education around the world"? I say no, as it isn't technically possessive, but I have a friend who disagrees. Who is correct??
Jo Says:
2/27/2008 11:06:51 PM
Traditionally, there are eight parts of speech (or maybe nine, if the article is separate), but not one of them is called "possessive." =O
rpmason Says:
2/25/2008 9:44:42 AM
Erin, Not true, false, incorrect, and erroneous. :-)
Erin Says:
2/7/2008 9:36:38 AM
Can you do a run through again on semi colons? I have a person who says if you have more than 3 commas in one sentence you must use semi colons.... True?
rpmason Says:
2/4/2008 3:51:14 PM
Jerry Alexander, GG discusses the use of commas with 'and' and 'or' in the episode named 'Serial Comma'.
rpmason Says:
2/4/2008 3:47:42 PM
J and Dana, GG covered plurals and possessives for proper names in the episode named 'Greeting Card Grammar'.
rpmason Says:
2/4/2008 3:43:28 PM
Susan, Rosa, and Judith. Using an apostrophe to denote plural for acronyms, initialisms, and years is (slowly) going away. 'The IBMs of the world', 'your comments on the draft SOPs are due Tuesday', 'the 60s was a decadent decade'. The NY Times announced in March, 2007, that 'DVDs' is now the correct plural in their style guide.
Susan Says:
1/29/2008 2:26:38 PM
I have the same question as Judith had on Jan 25, regarding acronyms and/or abbreviations. If I have more than one SOP, do I tell someone they need to read the SOPs or the SOP's? I see both on a regular basis.
Rosa Says:
1/29/2008 1:46:44 PM
The New York Times does something that drives me crazy: They use an apostrophe when referring to a decade, e.g., the 60's or 80's -- isn't this incorrect? Thanks for clarifying such terms as farmers market, etc.!
j Says:
1/29/2008 12:45:37 PM
Dana, that is something I've been pondering and a trusted grammar guru says there is no need for the apostrophe. But if their last name ends with an "s" would we put "es"?
Dana Says:
1/29/2008 6:52:09 AM
What about the name of a family, as in when you are addressing a correspondence with a family? Is it the Smiths or the Smith's?
Jerry Alexander Says:
1/29/2008 5:44:05 AM
Do the words,"and",or,"or" always have a coma before,and,after them? Jerry Alexander
Albert Says:
1/26/2008 6:11:53 AM
The New York Times (http://tinyurl.com/3ey9ow) and Business Week (http://tinyurl.com/2p2s8z) appear to use "writer's strike." That cannot be right. That would be a strike by one writer. Nobody would notice! If "writers" can be an adjective, then "busmen" could be an adjective, but you could not say "There will be a busmen strike tomorrow"
Judith Says:
1/25/2008 2:03:25 PM
what about apostrophes after abbreviatons? The New York Times does this: G.I.'s. It doesn't seem right to me.
debitte Says:
1/24/2008 11:03:19 PM
This was a great article; unfortunately, with all the opposing comments, it didn't solve the problem some of us face. I belong to an organization where when a Sweet Adelines quartet wins a regional contest, they then are inducted into The Winners Circle with all past quartet champions. It is indeed a "circle of winners" but I'm still not convinced it needs an apostrophe. What do others think?
Grammar Girl Says:
1/21/2008 11:53:13 PM
You all disagree with me, and you all make good points! I know it is a contentious issue. The Associate Press recommends leaving off the apostrophe (so I'm not alone), but The Chicago Manual of Style recommends using the apostrophe (so you are all in good company). I am convinced by the argument that "writers" can just as easily be an adjective as it can be a possessive in "writers strike." The Los Angeles Times (http://tinyurl.com/2svvtq), The Washington Post (http://tinyurl.com/36kul3), and Reuters (http://tinyurl.com/2mv69d) appear to use "writers strike," and The New York Times (http://tinyurl.com/3ey9ow) and Business Week (http://tinyurl.com/2p2s8z) appear to use "writer's strike."
Joshua Says:
1/21/2008 10:33:00 PM
At my newspaper we tend to follow the rule you suggest -- for example, "teachers union." And yet, as is so often true in this profession, there is no way to be consistent.

"Men's basketball" is obviously correct, but not because it follows any rule -- rather, because we don't say it any other way. The style for "worker's compensation" is arbitrary but at least it can conform to the name of the state program. "Yankees fan" and "Yankees' fan" would make as much sense as what we use: "Yankee fan."

"Driver's licenses" vs. "drivers' licenses" vs. "drivers licenses" strikes me as insoluble.

Call it apostasy, but I would suggest that what looks and sounds wrong is wrong; what looks and sounds right is right. Rules rarely hold.
Grammar Girl Says:
1/21/2008 10:14:43 PM
You all disagree with me, and you all make good points! I know it is a contentious issue. The Associate Press recommends leaving off the apostrophe (so I'm not alone), but The Chicago Manual of Style recommends using the apostrophe (so you are all in good company). I am convinced by the argument that "writers" can just as easily be an adjective as it can be a possessive in "writers strike." The Los Angeles Times (http://tinyurl.com/2svvtq), The Washington Post (http://tinyurl.com/36kul3), and Reuters (http://tinyurl.com/2mv69d) appear to use "writers strike," and The New York Times (http://tinyurl.com/3ey9ow) and Business Week (http://tinyurl.com/2p2s8z) appear to use "writer's strike."
John Says:
1/21/2008 4:36:20 PM
The apostrophe is not used to only denote ownership. There is also the object gentive: "contributed toward the family's support" "Caesar's murderers" Descriptive or classifying genitive: "the room's furnishings" "a year's wages" "men's shirts" (shirts for men, not shirts of men)
chuck guilford Says:
1/20/2008 10:04:35 PM
Would you say the dog's fleas? Does the dog own the fleas? Maybe the fleas think they own the dog. How about today's paper? Today neither owns nor possesses the paper, but why is the "s" even there if not to beg for an apostrophe? I hope it's not on tomorrow's quiz. The apostrophe is such a troublesome little nuisance. Small wonder that more and more often it gets used less and less.
Albert Says:
1/20/2008 6:07:18 PM
I agree with ChazBear when he suggests that you are being too literal in your interpretation of the "possessive apostrophe", Grammar Girl. Take, for example, a strike by busmen. That would be a "busmen's strike", wouldn't it? There is no such word as "busmens", so there has to be an apostrophe. Again, you can have a fish market, a vegetable market and a stock market, where the nouns are being used attributively, but if you had a market set up by women, you would call it a "Women's Market". So Farmers' Market has to take the apostrophe. That looks like a good tip - try the expression with a word that has an irregular plural (i.e. one that does not end in "s"); if you have to add an "s" to say it (an "apostrophe -s", to be accurate), then the expression you are testing needs an apostrophe after the "s". A shop that sells ladies' bicycles has to use the apostrophe to describe their (its) wares, even though the bikes do not yet belong to any ladies. They are bicycles FOR ladies. Try my tip with this - if they sold men's bicycles, there obviously has to be an apostrophe.
rpmason Says:
1/18/2008 4:31:16 PM
Possessive can be formed by ownership, possession, occupancy, and idiom. Bob rents a house and so it's Bob's house even though he doesn't "own" it. However, the House of Lords is not the Lord's House. The crate of apples isn't the apples' crate. "This year's election" is an idiom for 'the election of this year'.
ChazBear Says:
1/18/2008 3:42:22 PM
The apostrophe is a remnant of the genitive case marking from English's Germanic origins. Genitive case is often described as denoting possession, but I think your criterion of literal ownership is too limiting. It can also communicate 'dependence on' or 'as defined by', as in the phrase "this year's election." My quick test for examples like those you cite is to try to substitute possessive pronouns. If one can say "The writers are continuing their strike" (using the possessive/genitive pronoun "their"), then it implies to me that it's the writers' strike. However, it would be odd to say "The farmers are on the way to their market," so I would go with "farmers market" (without an apostrophe). Another test uses the pronouns "whose" and "which": to decide if an apostrophe is needed in the construction Xs Y, I ask myself whether Y fits better in "Whose Y?" or "Which Y?" For example, to figure out if "Mothers Day" has an apostrophe (something I debated recently), I asked myself which sounds better, "Whose day? Mother's Day!" or "Which day? Mothers Day!" To me the latter sounds better, so "Mothers" is attributive (adjectival), not genitive (possessive).
David Says:
1/18/2008 8:59:55 AM
I was always taught that "of" can be substituted for a possessive apostrophe; for instance: the "farmers' market" or the "market of farmers". Although the farmers do not usually own the market, it is most definitely a "market of farmers", thus allowing "farmers' market". I would agree that "farmers market" is just as acceptable, though. I just wanted to point out another argument.

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