Episode Transcript

People Versus Entities
Episode 84: November 16, 2007

Grammar Girl here.
 
Aliza in Alaska recently asked whether she should use who or that to refer to a board of directors.
 
Today we're going to decide whether companies are people or things; in other words, whether you use the relative pronoun who or that when referring to an entity like a company or board of directors. I had to look this up the first time someone asked. For many years, before I became Grammar Girl and had to answer people's questions, I simply rewrote sentences to avoid having to figure this one out.
 
People Versus Entities
 
What confused me was that even though companies are entities, they're made up of people. But it turns out that this somewhat confusing fact is actually one of the keys to knowing which pronoun to use.
 
You see, a company, because it is just a legal entity, can't actually do much; it is the company’s people who typically take action. So although you might often see it written that a company laid off 1,000 people, to be precise it was actually the company's managers or the board of directors who laid off all those people. The board members might like you to think the big, bad amorphous company was to blame, but in the end it was people who made it happen.
 
So instead of letting those managers hide behind bad grammar, call them out! Use proper sentences like this one:
 
Today, the MegaCo directors, who just gave themselves a raise, laid off 1,000 factory workers.
 
Similarly, you would use the word they and not it to continue the paragraph:
 
Today, the MegaCo directors, who just laid off 1,000 factory workers, gave themselves a raise. They should be ashamed of themselves.
 
So there's one rule: when action, good or bad, is taken in a corporate environment, usually it is the people at the company doing the work, and if you need to use a pronoun you obviously refer to the people as who.
 
Nevertheless, it's true that sometimes you have to refer to a corporation. If a company is acquired, for example, and you want to add a bit of extra information, you might write:
 
MegaCo, the company that was named worst place to work in 2007, will be acquired by MondoCo in December.
 
Similarly, you would use the word it when continuing the paragraph:
 
MegaCo, the company that was named worst place to work in 2007, will be acquired by MondoCo in December. The CEO of MegaCo said the company is expected to sell for one billion dollars despite the fact that it was recently valued at 500 million dollars.
 
Not all companies are bad, but if it helps you remember the grammar rules to think of them as unfeeling, faceless entities, I give you permission to do so.
 
Collective Nouns
 
Another way to think of this is that corporation and board are collective nouns, meaning they are nouns that describe a group, just like orchestra, team, and family. In the United States, collective nouns are usually treated as singular. It would be silly to refer to the corporation as he or she, so the only singular pronoun that remains is it.*
 
It is more complicated in Britain, where collective nouns are usually treated as plural, but then I think it makes sense to fall back on the idea that corporations and boards are entities and can’t take action without people.
 
Squidgyness
 
It's important to note that this is an area where there is some disagreement. For example, a lawyer wrote in arguing that a corporation should be treated as a person because it is considered a “legal person” under the law, and you can certainly find common usage where people refer to corporations using pronouns such as who and they. I found it interesting that Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage gives a lot of credit for the growing use of plural pronouns to advertising and PR people at large corporations trying to “present a more human and less monolithic face to the public.” Nevertheless, most grammarians lean in the direction of companies being nameless, faceless entities that should be treated as singular nouns and not personified.
 
Whose
 
A striking divergence from the idea of not personifying companies, though, is that it is fine to use whose as the possessive pronoun when you’re referring to a company, or a table for that matter. Because English doesn't have a possessive pronoun to go with that or which, we have to use whose, and for the most part, everyone just accepts the idea. For example, there is little objection to sentences such as
 
That is the company whose managers fled the country.
That is the table whose legs were damaged last week.
 
And remember that whose in this case is spelled w-h-o-s-e, not w-h-o-apostrophe-s.
 

So there you go! Companies are just legal entities and should be referred to as such, using words like that and it. It's the company’s people who do most of the work, and you already know that they should be referred to as who or they.

Get-It-Done Guy

 
This week I'm excited to tell you that we've launched the first new Quick and Dirty Tips podcast in a long time, and I think you're going to really like it. The host, Stever Robbins, gives productivity tips, and the show is called “Get-It-Done Guy's Quick and Dirty Tips to Work Less and Do More.” This week Stever is talking about how to deal with an e-mail backlog, which could come in really handy next week if you're traveling for Thanksgiving. You can find the Get-It-Done Guy podcast at iTunes and at quickanddirtytips.com, where you can also find a transcript of this podcast, my contact information, photos from the Grammar Girl Flickr group, a link to the Facebook quiz to go with this episode, and all the other great Quick and Dirty Tips podcasts. There's no Behind the Grammar podcast this week because I am behind on writing my book.
 
That's all. Thanks for listening.
 
*He, she, and it aren't the only singular pronouns, they are the only singular pronouns that could be used in my example sentence. I and you are also singular subjective pronouns. Me, you, him, her, and it are singular objective pronouns, and my, your, his, hers, and its are singular possessive pronouns.
 
 
 

Comments (19) for People Versus Entities |  Subscribe to Comment

LAURA Says:
11/13/2008 5:42:24 PM
IF YOU ARE EXPLAINING TO SOMEONE WHERE YOU LIVE WHAT SHOULD YOU SAY?.."i LIVE IN HOUSTON....OR " I STAY IN HOUSTON". Is using the word stay incorrect grammar?
Rafik Kazikhanov Says:
10/8/2008 9:31:42 AM
Hi, I have a question. Is "why" when used in a question singular or proper? Thanks!
Jae Baeli Says:
5/27/2008 12:59:11 PM
okay, what about the phrase "a legion of guardian angels"--do you say "who" did something or "that" did something? A legion is a collective noun, angels is plural, and they are entities, but neither are really PEOPLE. hehe. So would the phrase be "A legion of guardian angels who" or "A legion of guardian angels that"? thanks, Jae
Albert Says:
1/14/2008 8:15:59 PM
As an Englishman, I have no problem with "That is the company whose managers fled the country." But I could not say,"That is the table whose legs were damaged last week." I cannot speak for everyone in the UK, but that's the way I have absorbed our language. If I had to correct that sentence without completely rewriting it, I would say "That is the table, the legs of which were damaged last week." I also agree with Teri Greene (1/8/2008). "The committee was unanimous", but "the committee were undecided".
Teri Greene Says:
1/8/2008 6:36:34 AM
Asbestos I remember from school, a collective noun uses singular pronouns when it acts as a unit, and plural when it acts as a bunch of individuals. E.g.: The group was escorted to its reserved table. The group ordered different entrees, and they enjoyed them equally.
Dave Says:
1/7/2008 5:21:29 PM
Here's an interesting lyric from Elvis Costello's song, "Oliver's Army": "Oliver's army is here to stay Oliver's army are on their way" I always thought that was an interesting lyric, with the collective plural/singular thing happening in the same phrase.
Matt Says:
12/14/2007 11:41:36 AM
I struggled with this concept in a couple of papers that I have written. The problem that I have is how can a company, which is legally a person in the rules that it has to abide by, be referred to as an "it". If our system allows for a corporation to have the same rights, in general, as you and I, shouldn't it be referred to in a similar fashion while writing?
Bill Says:
11/29/2007 2:10:57 AM
Where can the "Behind the Grammar" podcast be found? I've done quite a bit of searching but have not been able to find it.
Melissa Donovan Says:
11/20/2007 6:52:04 PM
I've wondered about this before, but have always just reworded my text. Now I know! -Melissa Donovan Writing FORWARD
CubeNerd Says:
11/19/2007 4:33:28 PM
This is remarkably similar to Episode 7.
Pat Steppic Says:
11/19/2007 2:50:35 PM
Data and media are plural nouns - "the data are," not "the data is."
Daisy Says:
11/19/2007 8:43:46 AM
I think that your awsome!
Rafik Kazikhanov Says:
11/19/2007 8:22:11 AM
I'm doing GOOD, not WELL!!! I have horible grammar and spelling, I need help from a nerd you namely! Rafik Kazikhanov
Dan L. Says:
11/18/2007 5:40:11 PM
Who/whom: When I'm not sure, I test to see whether 'he' or 'him' works with the particular sentence construction. For your example, I would say "hoping he [not him] was in there." I thus conclude that whoever [not whomever] is correct.
wsolberg Says:
11/18/2007 1:57:56 PM
To continue the who/whom dilemma, how about commenting on the usage of these terms in this sentence? "I activated the turn signal and honked the horn, hoping whomever was in there would get the message." Isn't it more correct to use whoever?
Dan L. Says:
11/17/2007 7:45:55 PM
Other collective nouns that are singular: government agencies such as the FCC, Congress, the House of Representatives, the Senate, the Supreme Court.
devon Says:
11/16/2007 10:43:56 AM
how long have you been doing this for because like some people do not care
devon Says:
11/16/2007 10:41:21 AM
why do you do this stuff for people
Niamh Kiernan Says:
11/16/2007 9:37:55 AM
Well you definitely brought clarity to this issue and yes it is good to remember that there are people behind the legal entity.

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