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Apostrophe Catastrophe (Part Two)
Episode 35: January 05, 2007

Grammar Girl here.

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Today's topic is tough apostrophe issues.

Now, on to apostrophes.

I said it in the last episode about apostrophes, and I'll say it again: there are some confusing situations when it comes to apostrophes. For example, Christine, from Portland, Oregon; Judy from Traverse City, Michigan; Katy from Australia; Kristi from Washington, D.C.; and Rick from Las Vegas, Nevada, all asked how to make a singular word that ends in s possessive. I know that this is a raging debate even at the highest levels of government because Tracey from Mountain View, California, and a listener named Arman both sent me a funny article describing U.S. Supreme Court squabbles over making the word Kansas possessive. Words such as Kansas that end with an s can be stumpers when it comes to apostrophes.

Is it Kansas's statute with an apostrophe s or Kansas' statute with just an apostrophe at the end? Justice Clarence Thomas wrote the majority opinion and prefers to leave off the extra s, referring to Kansas' statute with just an apostrophe at the end, whereas Justice David Souter wrote the dissenting opinion and prefers the double s of Kansas's statute with an apostrophe before the final s.

So who's right? The first clue is that Justice Thomas' name ends with an s, so you might guess that he is more familiar with the issue. Associated Press style also recommends leaving off the extra s. Some of you have noticed that I tend to favor AP style, so you won't be surprised to learn that I prefer to leave off the extra s. Unfortunately, I have to admit that this isn't a hard-and-fast rule; it's a style issue. Other style books such as Fowler's Modern English Usage recommend adding the apostrophe s to almost all singular words that end with s.* So our first tough issue—how to make words that end with s possessive—doesn't actually have an answer; it's a style issue and you can do it either way.

I always feel bad when the answer is that there isn't an answer, so here's an easier situation that has a firm rule: if the word ending with s is plural, such as aardvarks, then you just add an apostrophe at the end to make it possessive. For example, you could write, "The aardvarks' escape route [s apostrophe] was blocked" to indicate that a family of aardvarks needed to find another way out of danger.

Plural words that don't end with s, such as children, do take an apostrophe s at the end for possession. For example, you could write, "Fortunately, the children's room [children apostrophe s] had a hidden doorway."

Here's a tricky issue with a definite answer: how do you make the plural of a single letter, as in Mind your p's and q's? It's shocking, but you actually use the apostrophe before the s! It looks possessive, but it isn't. The apostrophe is just there to make it clear that you're writing about multiple p's and q's. The apostrophe is especially important when you are writing about a's, i's, and u's because without the apostrophe readers could easily think you are writing the words as, is, and us.

Finally, we'll end with another gray area. Brian in Toronto and a listener named Josh asked whether they should use apostrophes to make abbreviations plural. Brian gets irritated when he sees signs advertising CD's for sale with it written C-D-apostrophe-s. Gen wrote in about the same thing, feeling a sense of horror after seeing CD's written with an apostrophe in the New York Times. Although I share Brian and Gen's irritation and hate seeing it written that way, again, I have to admit that it's a style issue, and some books recommend putting in the apostrophe because it indicates that letters are missing**. It makes me want to let out a big “Hrumph” like Sir Fragalot, but that's the way it is.

Believe it or not, there are even more issues we can talk about related to apostrophes, but I'm afraid I'm going to overwhelm everyone so I'll save them for another day.

That's all.

In the last episode I mentioned that I was thinking about doing a video podcast and there was a revolt! I've never received so much e-mail on one topic! Thank you so much for the input, and don't worry--I have no intention of abandoning the audio podcast. If I did video it would be a supplemental thing, and with all the comments I got encouraging me not to do it, it's a lot less likely to happen.

Thank you also to everyone who voted in the poll about the theme music. About 20 percent of you hate it, but 50 percent of you love it. I feel really bad about the people who hate it, but I don't think 20 percent is enough to justify changing the music. I'm afraid that if I change it, all that would happen is that a different 20 percent of you would hate it. But please do know that I gave your comments and votes serious consideration, and it really wasn't an easy decision to make.

So, the book giveaway winners this week are Liz, Jean A., Steve H., Warren from Newbury Park, California, and Kevin from Oakland, California. They all win a copy of Harry Shaw's book Punctuate It Right. Congratulations and please check your e-mail for instructions.

Thank you for listening. Please send questions and comments to feedback@quickanddirtytips.com, call them in to the voice-mail line at 206-338-GIRL (4475), or use the free MyChingo tool in the sidebar at the Grammar Girl website at QuickAndDirtyTips.com, where you'll also find a transcript of this podcast.

*The exceptions according to Fowler’s are words such as Moses and Bridges that end with an s that makes an /iz/ sound, classical names such as Zeus and Venus, and Jesus. Fowler's suggests that all of these words should end with just an apostrophe (e.g., Moses' tablets).

** Brian correctly pointed out that if you followed this logic, then you would need an apostrophe after every letter in an abbreviation (C'D's). I agree, but I don't write the books (yet).

Press

Grammar Girl has received a lot of press attention in the last week!

Grammar Girl was interviewed for an Associated Press story about bad grammar in song lyrics.
Grammar Girl was interviewed for the New Comm Road podcast. (Hear me ramble about how the show got started!)
The show was mentioned in Podcast User Magazine. (PDF file)
The show was recommended by the Arizona Republic.
The show was highlighted on the LifeHacker blog.

Comments (116) for Apostrophe Catastrophe (Part Two) | Subscribe to Comment

Brad Says:
6/25/2009 12:28:49 PM

This has always plagued me because I have been convinced that placing an apostrophe after a single word ending with s was the proper method for making a possessive. However, my thesis advisor insisted that a scholar by the name of Dibelius should be made possessive by Dibelius's. Furthermore, a review I submitted to a journal was edited to place the extra s at the end. I was beginning to think I was mistaken, but I am glad to know that it is a matter of style.

Grammar Dude Says:
3/25/2009 2:53:13 AM

There seems to be great interest in the possesive form here. Allow me give you a Biblical or Talmudic answer. In the 15th century Moses was written as von Mose. Mose means marsh. The Greeks called him Mosis because he was of the marsh, and they didn't like male a male name to end in a. For example MouSSa. Also, the double ss is of semitic ancestry. Historicly the first and middle "S" looked like an f, while the last "S" looked like an s. And this must have happened during the developement of miniscule orthography "fs" the ß was formed. So, let's look at Mosses. Mosses' characteristics? Mos'ses character? In closing I say to yee: When the Mauritanians of Moorish-town's moored upon the Spanish marsh; moors and marshes were marked and marched.

Henry Says:
2/20/2009 11:03:44 PM

While we write "one week's vacation" and "two weeks' vacation", how about "nine months(?) and one week(?) vacation"? Should it be "nine months' and one week's vacation" or simply "nine months and one week's vacation"? Many thanks for your help.

Elena Says:
10/22/2008 10:02:29 AM

I noticed that Emily from South Bend brought up a very good point . . . apostrophes when writing numbers or dates. I was always taught that when you write decades it's 1700s or 1900s. I work in a law firm that uses a lot of forms with numbers, such as C-4s and C-7s. All the attorneys keep adding apostrophes, such that the form takes of the "form" C-4's and C-7's. Isn't this wrong??? This is one of my biggest pet peeves. Could you address this problem in, say, an episode of "Apostrophe Catastrophe (Part Three)?" Thanks!

Heidi Says:
10/9/2008 3:48:42 PM

Grammer Girl, On a Christmas card, which is correct... "Happy Holidays from The O'Haras" or "Happy Holidays from The O'Hara's"?

eve Says:
8/7/2008 12:49:57 PM

love your site but the security is bumming me out

eve Says:
8/4/2008 11:26:20 AM

hello! love this site!

Jeff Says:
5/1/2008 2:49:50 PM

How about this one - if you are talking about a final exam schedule, which would be correct "finals schedule" or finals' schedule"? Is it plural or possessive or both?

Kristin Says:
3/20/2008 1:12:37 AM

I hope people other than grammarians read your stuff, because my headache would dissipate considerably. Misuse of apostrophes and of homophones are my biggest grammar peeves. What's so sad is that these things are the *easier* grammar rules to follow, which tells me that people simply no longer care.

Kerry Says:
2/15/2008 5:47:01 PM

Apostrophes for possessives: For Proper Nouns ending in "s" - if it's a single syllable word, use 's, but if it's a multi-syllablic word, just add the '. Jesus' Odysseus' Chris's Ross's Kansas' The rule of thumb is to work out plural first, then possessive. The actresses' awards? The actress's award? This is such a fabulous site!

Kerry Says:
2/15/2008 5:43:39 PM

On "older" versus "elder" - when you have only two, the younger and the elder, use elder. When you have more than two, the younger, the older, the older, the older and the oldest, use older. That's what I was taught by my grammar nun.

Julie Says:
2/10/2008 12:13:29 AM

After reading the comments, am I right in assuming that I can say the Smiths without an apostrophe?

Grammar Girl Says:
8/22/2007 12:59:29 AM

For reasons that I've never understood, "Jesus" is an exception to the possessive rules. Even style guides that recommend using the second "s" if you pronounce it recommend leaving it off in the case of "Jesus."

CuriousBoy Says:
8/19/2007 5:00:59 PM

The pronunciation guideline makes a lot of sense to me. If the possessive of a word ending in "s" is pronounced as though the syllable "seas" is added to the end of it, then form the possessive by appending "'s" to the word: "boss's approval" is pronounced "boss-seas approval." However I disagree with one of the examples: "Jesus' parables." Wouldn't one pronounce that "Jesus-seas parables" so that it would be written as "Jesus's parables?" Consider a less lofty example: "Jesus's eyes." I would not pronounce that like "Jesus eyes;" I would pronounce it like "Jesus-seas eyes." Would I be wrong?

Grammar Girl Says:
8/12/2007 2:00:32 AM

In general you can't use apostrophes to make words plural, but there are a few exceptions (if you accept "New York Times" style or consider letters to be words).

There are some examples in the episode on this page. See the paragraphs about "CD's" and making letters plural.

dave Says:
8/11/2007 6:19:28 PM

I've been having a discussion with my 4th grade son about apostrophes and using them to make a word plural. I told him I don't believe you can. Are there every any cases where you can use an apostrophes to make a word plural and if so do you have some examples? Thanks

Inanimator Says:
7/19/2007 10:30:32 PM

This podcast reminds me of another issue which often comes up in my writing. Is it allowed to use the possessive form for inanimate objects? Often, I can avoid the inanimate possessive easily, but other times, I can't get rid of it without making the sentence clumsy. I think it's fine, but my friends disagree. Who's right? I would love to hear a podcast about this topic.

aardvark Says:
7/19/2007 2:56:49 AM

According to Punctuate It Right! p.43, Harry Shaw says to, "Use the apostrophe alone to form the possessive of a plural noun ending in s .

Two weeks' notice.

Hope this helps.

aardvark Says:
7/19/2007 2:50:08 AM

The word plaintiff is a noun defined as one who brings a law suit. You would not use it to describe a school district.

emily Says:
7/18/2007 3:08:35 PM

quick grammar issue.
"There are 236 plaintiffs school districts in CEE."

Is "plaintiff school districts" correct? That is what I'm tending towards, but wanted to know the rule.

Linda Says:
7/11/2007 1:42:20 PM

I am trying to find out the correct punctuation of the phrase, "two weeks notice." Does it get an apostrophe? I thought it was "two weeks' notice" because it is a possessive, but I've seen it as "two week's notice" and "two weeks notice". Help!

aardvark Says:
6/1/2007 12:22:12 AM

Hi Emily,

The first part of your question concerns making a Greek name plural. Patricia T. O’Conner says in her book, Woe Is I, to add es to names ending in the letter s. (p.21). Signing your Christmas cards, The Metropolises, makes good sense and soothes the ear, as well.

The second part of your question concerns using apostrophes to show possession. Good news! In his book, Punctuate It Right!, Harry Shaw uses two Greek multi-syllabic names to illustrate his point.

He says, “ In words of more than one syllable ending in s or s sound, add an apostrophe only: Themistocles’ strategy, Aristophanes’ plays, Berlioz’ compositions.” (p.43)

So, if you were planning to invite aardvark to your summer home, you would send him an invitation requesting the pleasure of his company at the Metropolis’ summer home.

Hope this helps.

Emily Says:
5/31/2007 4:01:50 PM

Years ago I was trying to save time while helping my mom write out family Christmas cards by signing our last name (plural) alone instead of The (our name) Family. She wouldn't let me continue because we didn't know how to make it plural. It's a Greek last name that ends in "is" like the Greek word metropolis. Instead of the last name Richards where the final letter s is vocal (pronounced like a z, not an s), our last name would require the added z sound after the final s sound. So if Metropolis were a Greek last name, and I wanted to sign a card with something that would be read The Metropolis-iz, how would I do that? Is it just The Metropolis'? And in that case, is the plural the Metropolis's summer home, for example?

Tom Says:
5/9/2007 10:51:48 PM

Have you noticed the poster for The Robinsons (no relation ;-)

It has: wait 'til you meet the family of the future.

(Till or until of course being the correct form.)

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/meettherobinsons/

Tom Says:
5/9/2007 10:47:55 PM

(Unless GG corrects me!) Your son 'owns' the return, so yes, it's: my son's return.

If you were waiting for two (or more) sons, it would be: my sons' return.

HEATHER Says:
5/8/2007 9:44:27 PM

My question is reagarding the following: I am waiting for my son's return.

I am only referring to 1 son. Do I need the apostrophe?

Kevin Says:
5/2/2007 3:09:21 PM

Is this correct? I've searched all over the internet for references on this topic, but cannot find the answer anywhere. My problem is that I don't know if it should be Schmitz' pencil or Schmitz's pencil. According to Linfs, I would use the former. Thanks!

Grammar Girl Says:
4/30/2007 4:49:09 AM

I've looked this up in a bunch of different places. I found conflicting answering, none of which seemed definitively convincing.

I prefer "doctor appointment" because it makes more sense to me (it's my appointment with the doctor, so doctor is modifying appointment), but "doctor's appointment" seems to be more common.

Sorry I can't be more helpful!

Steve Says:
4/19/2007 2:28:15 AM

It would be "37 years' experience", and you can tell by comparing the singular forms: "One year of experience" vs. "One year's experience."

Christy Says:
4/15/2007 4:28:50 PM

What about a doctor's appointment. Is that correct? Does the doctor own the appointment?

Nick Says:
4/13/2007 11:53:10 PM

One of my co-workers is writing an evaluation for a program she is conducting later this month. One of the statements states,"I know more about SCC services, procedures and programs then I did before attending the event."

SCC is the location (College in this case) need a possesive apostrophe?

Linda Says:
4/7/2007 6:37:04 PM

Y'all: Short for you all; you all need to get to the meeting. You all's meeting is running late. Ergo, y'all's. Of course it should actually be "your meeting," but I tried...

Linda Says:
4/7/2007 5:28:07 PM

Grammar Girl, This had two separate parts of a question. I believe you answered the first part, but not the second.

Linda Says:
4/7/2007 5:22:16 PM

It would be "37 years experience OR 37 years of experience." There is no apostrophe because "years" is plural, not possessive. You are not putting an apostrophe because the "of" is missing. With or without the "of" is correct.

Linda Says:
4/7/2007 4:59:16 PM

Actually I believe it was the party that people were being invited to and not their birthdays (as they were on separate days) so it should be "Bill Packer & Len Winston's 40th birthday party."

Linda Says:
4/7/2007 4:52:49 PM

That's exactly what she was addressing on Ophra. It was most interesting.

Linda S. Says:
4/7/2007 1:08:06 PM

Can someone comment on the apostrophe use for a last name ending in a double s? I inherited the name through marriage and never feel as though I'm writing the plural form correctly. On an invitation, is our party at the Chambliss' or the Chambliss's or the Chamblisses? When signing a greeting from all of us, are we the Chambliss', the Chambliss's or the Chamblisses? I try to follow what others do, but I see it so many ways, I don't know which is correct!

Grammar Girl Says:
4/4/2007 3:59:34 PM

"O'Brien's" looks strange, but it is correct!

Patricia Gill Says:
4/4/2007 2:14:12 PM

I appreciate your clarifying the use of apostrophes. I was wondering if there is a rule about a word containing more than one? If the car belongs to O'Brien is it O'Brien's car? It looks so strange to me. Thanks!

Grammar Girl Says:
4/2/2007 5:04:27 AM

If two people share something you only put the apostrophe "s" after the last name (John and Susie's dog), but if you are talking about separate things that they don't share, then each name gets an apostrophe "s" (John's and Susie's dogs).

Megan Says:
4/2/2007 3:21:45 AM

Grammar Girl, After listening to both apostrophe pod casts, I was left wondering about multiple subjects. When I write: John's and Susie's dog was barking, do I put an apostrophe s after each name because the dog belongs to both John and Susie, or do I simply put it after Susie? I've seen it both ways, but I seem to remember my junior high English teacher telling the class to put an apostrophe s after both owners. Thanks for the help!

Catherine H. Says:
4/1/2007 7:40:18 PM

I have an argument for adding an apostrophe+s to the ends of singular nouns that end in s.

Controversy: Thomas's book or Thomas' book?

I'm a proponent of the form "Thomas's" mainly because I find the other form visually distracting: in a flicker of a moment, I think that Thomas is plural -- but there is only one Thomas, not many Thomases. This may sound petty, but it actually distracts me a lot. Also, while "children's" might appear very briefly to be singular, the whole noun "children" is so recognizably plural that I don't find myself thinking that stuff like "children" is singular.

Interestingly, the only place I am happy with the other form (singular s-final noun followed by just an apostrophe and no additional s) is in the word Jesus'. I actually saw in a style guide that Jesus' was the only place it was okay to "violate" this rule I believe so strongly in, probably due to popular convention. I believe it only because I actually hear people say "Jesus" in church the same phonetic way they say "Jesus'." E.g., "In Jesus' name we pray." (Oh, God, what a mess of punctuation marks I've just made.) In other places, people will actually pronounce the two s's at the end of "Thomas's" (ta-mus-ez).

Wow, "E.g." looks awkward. I had originally left it uncapitalized, and then I changed it since it was the beginning of a sentence. Rawrrrr, I hope that's correct.

Jen Says:
3/30/2007 6:05:53 PM

It has! Thanks again ...

aardvark Says:
3/29/2007 6:03:40 PM

Again, in Harry Shaw's Punctuate It Right! (p.43), he offers this advice:

"In one syllable proper names ending in s or an s sound add an apostrophe and s."

Jan Szucs's 40th birthday.

If your last name were multi-syllabic and ended with an "s" or "s" sound, you would put the apostrophe after the final "s" in your last name.

Jan Superszucs' 40th birthday.

Hope this helps.

Jan Says:
3/29/2007 5:16:42 PM

Thanks for your help - one more question:

Where does the apostrophe can with a name like mine? Szucs ... one of those s things!

You are invited to celebrate Bill Packer's & Jan Szucs's 40th birthdays!

or

You are invited to celebrate Bill Packer's & Jan Szucs' 40th birthdays!

I'd like to get this right ...

Thanks again.

Jan Says:
3/29/2007 5:16:42 PM

Punctuate It Right! (p.43) says,"Use an apostrophe with each element in a series to indicate alternative or individual possession." This means that when the items have individual possession, such as the birthdays to which you refer, you will need an apostrophe for each man's name because each man has his own special day.

Squiggly's and aardvark's birthdays will be celebrated later this year. Grammar Girl will not reveal their ages!

Grammar Girl Says:
3/29/2007 3:43:35 PM

The party is shared and the birthdays are not. So depending on how you word the invitation, you could write it two different ways:

"You are invited to celebrate Bill's and Len's birthdays."

"You are invited to Bill and Len's 40th birthday party."

Jan Says:
3/29/2007 1:05:06 PM

I have a question I would like help to answer. My husband and his friend have birthdays one day apart. We are having a party for them - so how should this go on the invitation? You are invited to Bill Packer & Len Winston's 40th birthdays? Or Bill Packer's & Len Winston's 40th birthdays? Thanks.

Grammar Girl Says:
3/28/2007 4:59:24 PM

You can use bad as an adverb when it follows a linking verb such as feel, smell, and taste. So it is correct to say, "The children behaved badly," but it is also correct to say, "I feel bad." I covered this in more detail in the episode titled Bad Versus Badly.

Linda Says:
3/27/2007 8:15:24 PM

Why would she be behind it when she said she would say Arkansas' vice Arkansas's? Did I miss something?

gitmofish@aol.com Says:
3/27/2007 8:12:58 PM

Girl, Saw you existed on Oprah today. So glad to find you!!! Apostrophes are my pet peeve. I do not feel it's a "style issue" whether or not to use apostrophe s or just an apostrophe after a name ending in s as much as it is a lack of education. People don't know any better any more, including the younger teachers, so they don't teach it. I have noticed in some of the elementary English books where the s' is not even taught any more. I would guess that Fowler, in Fowler's Modern English Usage, is younger also. As my maiden name was Sanders, I paid a great deal of attention to the s' that was used with my name, unlike most others’ names. When my own children went to elementary school, I spoke with each of their teachers before the lessons on showing possession, to be sure my child would not be counted wrong when using s' vice s's, because s's was what was going to be taught, but my children would not be using it.

What I did not see addressed was what to do when the word ended in a Z. That's not even addressed in English books anymore. A z is treated the same as an s (Mr. Rodriquez' watch, Mrs. Sanchez' necklace, the Melendez’ parents).

News announcers drive me crazy adding es (phonetically) to every name ending in s now. They are supposed to be setting examples and yet are showing their ignorance instead. You never used to hear that used. Arkansas? Oh my goodness, talk about their English going downhill. Like I said, apostrophes are my pet peeve.

Nancy Says:
3/27/2007 2:19:49 AM

On 1/4/07 you wrote, "I always feel bad." I have been under the impression that "badly" is correct. Please clarify. I saw you on Oprah! Good for you! How about "whether or not" and "if?" I was taught that just writing "whether" is incorrect. Thanks, Nancy

John Says:
3/19/2007 4:01:51 PM

We have clarity on the possessive of Arkansas's!
AR House Passes Bill Declaring "Arkansas's" The Correct Possessive Form Of The State's Name

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006658673

I have no proof, bu I think that Grammar Girl was behind this.

Helmut Oesterling Says:
3/14/2007 11:54:57 PM

Great website. Keep the Audio please. And don't change it! It's perfect! I find it extremely helpful. You make a great teacher.

Helmut

Anne Says:
3/9/2007 8:49:18 PM

I'm pretty sure there is an apostrophe. My understanding is that it is effectively "37 years of experience," so when you cut out the "of," you use an apostrophe. I choose to think of those years owning the experience that they provided, and that helps me remember.

Susan Says:
3/9/2007 7:39:01 PM

What a great site! Here's another apostrophe puzzle. In the phrase, "She has 37 years(') experience...," is there an apostrophe or not? Why?

Grammar Girl Says:
3/3/2007 9:48:08 PM

(James' mom) just sent me a link to this great story about Arkansas debating whether to add a final "s" when making their state name possessive.

Chris Says:
3/2/2007 12:35:17 AM

Hi Grammar Girl - Just recently found your site and enjoy downloading podcasts and listening to your tips--good stuff. I was recently listening to your July '06 explanations re: "i.e." vs. "e.g." I must say, at the risk of sounding scathing, that your pronunciation of "etc." is wrong, simply wrong (as is the pronunciation of the latin derivatives by most people). As you know, it is a two-word Latin phrase that starts with the word "ET." Thusly, the phrase should be pronounced ET-Cetera, not EC-Cetera. Please make a note.

Steven Chappell Says:
2/26/2007 4:22:42 PM

OK, I know you've just about done apostrophes to death, but this question came up on a listserv to which I subscribe, and I don't have an answer, other than the apostrophe is incorrect. Why is there an apostrophe in this sentence:

I read this sentence in The New Yorker: Edward Bernays, a nephew of Sigmund Freud's, is often called the father of public relations.

My question: "Sigmund Freud's" what? Why is there an apostrophe-s in that phrase? Why isn't it just "Sigmund Freud"?

So, that's the listserv post. If you have an answer, I would greatly appreciate hearing it.

John H. Williams Says:
2/20/2007 7:07:11 PM

If you write "the Handcocks' house" and "the Williames' house," how do you write "the Jones' house"? Is it "the Joneses' house"? I doubt it. Is it "the Jones's house"? How do you distinguish between a singular Jones and a plural Jones? Or is this an exception to the rule that should simply follow one's pronunciation?

Barry Says:
2/20/2007 12:15:39 AM

A question about the proper use of the possessive for things such as a license to drive. Many states use the singular form "driver license" while several others use the possessive "driver's license". Is there a correct usage or just a preference?

Grammar Girl Says:
2/13/2007 12:27:09 AM

My copy of the Associated Press Stylebook (copyright 1998) specifically uses "Kansas' schools" as an example in the apostrophe section. (It actually says all singular proper names that end with "s" should be made possessive with only an apostrophe.)

I haven't seen the explanation by the NY Times style guru, but it's hard for me to understand why CDs would be confusing as a plural in a headline. (I never noticed this before, but I just pulled up the paper and some headlines are in title caps and others are in all caps. I guess I can see how it could be confusing if the title is in all caps.)

Virginia Says:
2/12/2007 4:10:44 PM

Although I agree with most of what you said about the use of the apostrophe, I would argue that using an apostrophe with "Kansas" is incorrect because inanimate objects cannot possess anything. The correct usage is "the Kansas statute."

bkkdave Says:
2/11/2007 5:25:25 AM

Hi. I believe the AP rule actually is that an s should follow the apostrophe if the second-to-last letter in the word is a vowel. Therefore Kansas's and James's would be correct. On a separate apostrophe issue addressed in your podcast, I believe the NY Times style guru recently explained in response to a reader's question that it uses apostrophes after abbreviations such as CD so they're not confusing in headlines, and sticks with that style in the main text. Thanks for a great podcast!

Shannon Says:
2/9/2007 3:29:11 PM

Escuse me, GRAMMAR Girl! sorry for misspell

Shannon Says:
2/9/2007 3:27:54 PM

Thanks for sharing your talents with us! I have an apostrophe question. When advertising real estate prices, should the price be stated "from the $200's" or "from the $200s?" I think with the apostrophe to show the missing three zeros. Which is correct?

Grammar Girl Says:
2/4/2007 4:33:18 AM

A listener just sent me this link to a fun story about Toronto's bilingual struggle with apostrophes.

Susan Says:
2/2/2007 5:00:21 PM

Have you considered the fact that, by its nature, an abbreviation indicates that letters are missing? Therefore, using an apostrophe is redundant! (Brian, this topic is one of my pet peeves, too!) CDs are for sale, not CD's! SMEs are invited to the meeting, not SME's. :)

Cameron Says:
1/27/2007 2:18:56 PM

Traverse City is spoken Tra-verse City not Traverse as in:

traverse |tr?'v?rs| verb [ trans. ] 1 travel across or through : he traversed the forest. • extend across or through : a moving catwalk that traversed a vast cavernous space. • [ intrans. ] cross a hill or mountain by means of a series of sideways movements : I often use this route, eventually traversing around the cliff. • ski diagonally across (a slope), with only a slight descent. • figurative consider or discuss the whole extent of (a subject) : he would traverse a number of subjects and disciplines.

Sadie Says:
1/26/2007 4:15:36 AM

I agree with Snoop. When I first learned typesetting 11 years ago I was taught that the apostrophe should hook away from the numbers. As if the apostrophe was referencing the missing numbers from the year: (19) ’80

pim gillissen Says:
1/25/2007 10:34:46 AM

Hi grammar girl, I am Dutch, living in the Netherlands, but very much interested in the English language (as I have many American friends). Now the apostrophy question. In which similar case do we use an apostrophy at the end of a word as in the example: At the bakers'?? And what is the grammar on this subject? Thanks and with kind regards. Pim Gillissen, Amsterdam. Netherlands.

Dorothy Hudson Says:
1/24/2007 8:54:45 PM

I am 71 years old, and was taught a hard and fast rule that the possessive of a singular noun required an apostrophe s. The ghost of my English teacher won't let me leave off the additional s. I can hear her reprimand now, with 10 points off for sloppy work! I realize we are now in a new century and our language is a living one, but I thank Fowler for letting me continue to use an apostrophe and an s on singular possessive nouns.

GrammarJones Says:
1/23/2007 11:26:54 PM

I agree. "CDs" is plural; no apostrophe is needed. If you used apostrophes to indicate missing letters, it would be spelled "C'D's." Grammar Girl, you say you use AP style, but this is certainly not the case in your bio where you use the serial comma. There's also a typo there: "Mignon earned a B.A. in English from the University of Washington in Seattle and a M.S. in biology from Stanford University." It should be "an M.S."

Shay Says:
1/23/2007 10:11:09 PM

Thanks! What a great site. I will introduce it to my students tomorrow.

Bill Says:
1/22/2007 9:44:53 PM

Nowadays, whenever the news media reports a missing person, the media often reports, " Jimmy Jones went missing last week" ......."went" missing? what is with this "went" missing term? shouldn't it be Jimmy Jones is missing since last week? Please advise, grammar girl.

Mike Says:
1/22/2007 5:12:29 PM

I absolutely agree. If you pronounce it, then you should write it. So there really isn't any ambiguity in the "Kansas" issue. Souter is right and Thomas is wrong. I also disagree with the "CDs" answer; there is no apostrophe, period. It's not a matter of style, it's a matter of literacy.

Lynne Says:
1/22/2007 4:39:38 PM

I have been a technical writer for 25 years and find some of your comments very interesting.

I teach a Better Business Writing class for my software company, and I always teach that, if you must make an extra 's' sound when pronouncing a singular possessive word ending in an s(e.g., Kansas's), you place the extra 's' after the apostrophe.

Catharine Says:
1/21/2007 2:16:45 AM

Not to get too much on your case about pronounciation (and this actually has nothing to do with grammar), but the city in Michigan from which someone wrote to you to point out the debate about Kansas is not pronounced like the verb "to traverse", but like the noun "traverse". I had never heard of the noun form before, but if you go to Merriam-Webster.com, you can hear the pronounciation. Sorry, but I'm a Michigan native and it grated a little on my ear when you said it. I really liked this episode though, it's a problem that comes up very often. Terrific podcast!

Grammar Girl Says:
1/18/2007 10:40:10 PM

If you were signing cards "The Smiths" you would be referring to all the members of the Smith family. To include the apostrophe would mean that you were talking about a possession of someone named Smith. For example, you might write "Smith's mittens got left behind."

tksv Says:
1/18/2007 10:07:36 PM

I've always noticed when friends write to me that they use my last name and put in an apostrophe and I believe it's incorrect. For example: if you're writing to the Smith family and you address it: The Smiths, no apostrophe is needed, correct? I can't tell you how many times I see it written as: The Smith's, as if they owned something as opposed to more than one Smith. Can you confirm my opinion on this?

Gerard Says:
1/17/2007 11:40:45 PM

I'm with LucyGirl. While written language doesn't always match verbal language exactly, it just seems to make more sense to write Kansas's if we're going to pronounce it "Kansases."

Kristin - Manic Mommies Says:
1/16/2007 9:55:43 PM

I loved this episode - my son's name ends with an "s" and I have just started to realize the "problems" he will run into in the future!

Grammar Girl Says:
1/16/2007 7:11:23 PM

I misspoke in the podcast. I redid the recording, and the live version is now correct. (In other words, if you delete the original podcast and then download it again, it will be correct.

Bob S Says:
1/16/2007 2:22:44 PM

Enjoy your site, but noticed a disconnect between the text and the podcast. In referring to "aardvarks'" in the text you correctly write 's apostrophe', but in the podcast you say 'apostrophe s'.

MariaO Says:
1/15/2007 10:41:42 PM

Here is our grammar question from Texas: What is the plural of y'all? All y'all! (it's really not a joke)

Isaac P. Says:
1/13/2007 1:18:45 AM

I like this show, but there are some grammar snobs that really need to calm down, the world will not end if there are grammar mistakes! Read, I dont' like snobs,... there did the world end? No, it did not.

CB Says:
1/11/2007 2:08:20 AM

Love you podcast Grammar Girl...but I do HATE that intro music you use. Is like really bad rap music. Otherwise, your well thought out epidsodes have helped me to care more about proper language usage and style.Thanks!

Grammar Girl Says:
1/9/2007 11:35:38 PM

I'm sorry I can't give you a solid answer, but it's a style issue. As you will see in the comment below, some people decide which way to do it depending on how they would pronounce the word, but other style guides have other rules. (Someone following Associated Press rules would write "James' cereal" and someone following Fowlers Modern English Usage would write "James's cereal.")

You should write it whichever way seems right to you!

Grammar Girl Says:
1/9/2007 11:30:15 PM

Pronunciation has never been my strong point!

A listener named Corina sent me the following e-mail, which seems to address your question:

I’ve found “The Gregg Reference Manual” to be a helpful guide in forming the possessive of a singular noun ending in “s.” The manual states, “To form the possessive of a singular noun that ends in an “s” sound, be guided by the way you pronounce the word.”

If a new syllable is formed in the pronunciation of the possessive, add an apostrophe plus “s.”

Examples from “The Gregg Reference Manual”: your boss’s approval
the witness’s reply
Congress’s intention

If the addition of an extra syllable would make a word ending in an “s” hard to pronounce, add the apostrophe only.

Examples from “The Gregg Reference Manual”:

Jesus’ parables
Achilles’ heel
New Orleans’ restaurants

Jack Says:
1/9/2007 5:59:37 AM

Thanks. And now I see the archives.

suzyq Says:
1/9/2007 3:41:39 AM

As a separate note, grammergirl I love your show! Keep it up! And I like the other new podcasts connected to qdnow.com as well!

Confused mom- I don't claim to know as much as grammer girl but I always learned that you would add the apostrophe after the s like James'. I can understand your confusion and that does sound somewhat british to do it the other way but thats my two c Says:
1/9/2007 3:39:50 AM

LucyGirl Says:
1/8/2007 10:53:29 PM

This isn't Grammar Girl (obviously), but I thought I'd put my two cents in here. When you are using someone's name in this case, what you are really referring to is the person's residence or home. Kind of like the assumed "you" in commands, in this case you are saying the Hancocks' (house or home). Of course the party is not being held at the Hancocks themselves, because they are people, not a location. Usually the name refers to a couple or a family, not an individual. So it would be most appropriate to use the plural possessive form, which as GG points out is a style issue, and my personal preference is to omit the s after the apostrophe.

In the case of the Williams family, I would think that more than one Williams would be Williamses, and the home belonging to them would be the Williamses'. But this is probably a style issue as well, and could more simply, and equally properly, be written as the Williams'.

As I said, that's just my amateur take on it. GG, what do you think?
LucyGirl

LucyGirl Says:
1/8/2007 10:42:52 PM

Oh dear, I should have proofread better before I posted! What I meant in the third paragraph was "...why you pronounced words ending in an apostrophe...*as if they had an additional s after the apostrophe.*" Sorry about that! LucyGirl

LucyGirl Says:
1/8/2007 10:39:20 PM

Hey Grammar Girl,
First of all, I love your podcast! You are sharp, pithy, and funny, and I think the world would be a better place if everyone, (OK, well at least all speakers and writers of English), would listen to your show.

The apostrophe issue is near and dear to my heart. As a third grade teacher, one of my biggest pet peeves is the use of apostrophes to pluralize. Uggh!

But one question that arose in my mind as I listened to this episode, was why you pronounced words ending in an apostrophe, (when you were tackling the issue of singular nouns ending in s that were used as possessives, such as James' toys in Confusedmom's post above). If you choose not to add an apostrophe s to a singular noun ending in s when making it possessive, why would you still pronounce it as if it had the final s? Wouldn't James' sound just like James, not like Jameses? It caused me no small amount of consternation to discover that I may have been mispronouncing this category of words all my life! Please explain this to me.

Thanks, and keep up the great work GG!
LucyGirl

Confused mom Says:
1/8/2007 10:00:36 AM

My son's name is James. When he was a baby, I used to say and write James' toys and James' diapers. But then I read "Eats, Shoots and Leaves", which recommends using the 's with names that end in s, unless you are referring to Jesus. So now I say and write James's string cheese or James's pet frog or James's cereal, since I want to be sure it's clear that I am talking about a little boy and not God, but it feels awkward to me. Is this British style? What do you recommmend, Grammar Girl? Please help, and thank you for the wonderful podcast!

Grammar Girl Says:
1/8/2007 3:05:40 AM

You're correct: there should not be an apostrophe in 1970s.

Grammar Girl Says:
1/8/2007 3:04:02 AM

The links to examples are at the bottom of this page: http://grammar.qdnow.com/2006/09/21/title-caps.aspx

Eric Says:
1/7/2007 9:25:26 PM

The ambiguity of plurals/possessives such as P's & Q's can easily be fixed. Use -s for plurals, for example, P-s & Q-s. This works for singulars ending in s, abbreviations, etc., for example, James's bike, two James-s rode away.

ereinbergs Says:
1/7/2007 5:40:03 PM

I have a question on apostrophes as well. I've heard that waitress' vs waitress's depends on the word following: that the s isn't added when the next word begins with an s. For example: "waitress' seat" but "waitress's wage." Any truth to that?

Jean-Philippe Says:
1/7/2007 3:42:42 PM

O Gods, why it's so complex, (trying to make an Apostrophe)

Are you sure "Scoop" ? The '06 is the result of the computer era ?

In Roman numerals the D ( L=50 C=100 D=500 M=1000 Lucky Cows Drink Milk) is also represented with an Apostrophus, a backward C, that looks very suspicious to me, and I jump to the conclusion that this backward C gave us the backward apostrophe. Ok I don't know, but it seems that it is not related to the computer era only. isn't it ?

Moreover journalists tend to use this form ('06) while others such as publishers don't.

Scoop Says:
1/6/2007 5:08:08 PM

I hope you address the issue of the backward apostrophe that came about as the result of the computer era. You see it all the time in newspaper ads when referring to dates ('06 Dodge). The computer automatically places a closed apostrophe in front of the date. Many readers are now accepting this as correct form. You can get your computer to behave by typing two apostrophes together and then deleting the closed apostrophe.

John H. Williams Says:
1/6/2007 3:24:43 PM

For me, one of the most vexing apostrophe questions is how to designate someone's home as the site of an activity.

A common mistake is: "The party will be at the Hancock's." But what is correct? The Hancocks' with an apostrophe or the Handcocks without?

The problem is compounded when the family name ends in the letter s: "The party will be at the Williams'" --or is it "Williamses" or "Williams's" or just "Williams"?

Of course, you also see expensive signs on houses that read "The Handcock's," so this is a rather important question for the American consumer.

Thanks for any light you can shed. I like your blog very much.

Jack Says:
1/5/2007 9:26:16 PM

I was re-listening to one of your podcasts from September, the one on capitalization, Title Cap Capers. It makes reference to examples online. Are those archived somewhere?

Also, on another podcast, What Women Want, which I'm just now getting to, you mention a poll about whether the transcripts are useful. I don't find the poll now, but yes, when I've had questions, the transcripts have been useful. I've referred to them more than once.

Emily - South Bend, IN Says:
1/5/2007 8:31:36 PM

I appreciated your two podcasts on apostrophe's (ha ha). But I hoped you would address the use of them when referring to decades: in the 1970's vs in the 1970s. I personally cringe every time I see an apostrophe used in a decade, but if the majority ruled, they would be included. Thanks.

Christine Says:
1/3/2007 5:42:35 PM

I love the theme song!

Christine Says:
1/3/2007 5:21:13 PM

I think your theme music is wonderfully appropriate. When I hear it, it makes me think of the sound of a pen scratching over paper as I write (but in a far more hip and musical way).

Michelle Says:
1/3/2007 5:03:58 PM

Thank you for this episode, I have always wondered about the hanged/hung issue and never really understood it. I will stick with hanged when referring to someone's demise involving a rope and a pulled chair, but it's nice to know that there is a reason for it!

Laurie Says:
1/3/2007 12:59:54 PM

I love the theme music! Coincidentally, I thought that as I started listening to the pod cast in which you asked about the theme song.

Vicki Says:
1/3/2007 9:21:25 AM

I'm glad you asked about the theme song. I was actually going to comment about it. I usually listen to several shows back to back. Hearing that song over and over is annoying!!!

Elkin Says:
1/3/2007 1:09:00 AM

I love your pod cast, it's a very creative way of teaching how to use the language. Never change it. Thanks a lot.

John Says:
1/2/2007 11:59:54 PM

Love the Grammar Girl theme music. Very hip and cool. Don't change it!

Grammar Girl Says:
1/1/2007 9:50:06 PM

I'm not sure, and Fowler doesn't have an entry on the origin of "older" versus "elder," but my Webster's dictionary says that "elder" comes from the Old English "ieldra" as a compar. of "eald" for "old."

Kris Says:
1/1/2007 5:12:24 AM

We are a group of professional trainers teaching the writing process in schools:grades K through 12. (Did I use that colon correctly?) The name of our program is The Write Tools. I would like to speak to you on the phone regarding our program and an idea that I have in mind. Would you please call me at 303-221-5301 and ask for Kris or send me your phone number at kris@thewritetools.net and I will call you. We will be back to work on Tuesday, January 2, 2007. Thanking you in advance.

M. T. MacPhee Says:
1/1/2007 3:19:51 AM

OK. I answered your poll and posted a comment. Now I want a book. :) Actually, I have always liked your theme. It serves the valuable purpose of instantly informing me which show has popped up next on my iPod. How can you beat that? On a "slow news day" you might consider playing the whole thing with credits to the writer(s) and performer(s) if it is a composition of that scale. I listen to several podcasts and regular broadcasts that do that, and it makes a show both familiar and unusual at the same time. Happy Hogmanay!

Jirka Says:
12/31/2006 8:42:19 PM

Grammar Girl, I have a question which is somehow connected to this. Why do you have two ways of saying "more old" ->> "Older" and "Elder"?? Does it have similar reason as hanged and hung? Maybe it is stupid question and every English native knows that, but I'm just as an ESL student pretty curious about that. Thanks.