How about this one - if you are talking about a final exam schedule, which would be correct "finals schedule" or finals' schedule"? Is it plural or possessive or both?

I hope people other than grammarians read your stuff, because my headache would dissipate considerably. Misuse of apostrophes and of homophones are my biggest grammar peeves. What's so sad is that these things are the *easier* grammar rules to follow, which tells me that people simply no longer care.

Apostrophes for possessives: For Proper Nouns ending in "s" - if it's a single syllable word, use 's, but if it's a multi-syllablic word, just add the '. Jesus' Odysseus' Chris's Ross's Kansas' The rule of thumb is to work out plural first, then possessive. The actresses' awards? The actress's award? This is such a fabulous site!

On "older" versus "elder" - when you have only two, the younger and the elder, use elder. When you have more than two, the younger, the older, the older, the older and the oldest, use older. That's what I was taught by my grammar nun.

After reading the comments, am I right in assuming that I can say the Smiths without an apostrophe?

For reasons that I've never understood, "Jesus" is an exception to the possessive rules. Even style guides that recommend using the second "s" if you pronounce it recommend leaving it off in the case of "Jesus."

The pronunciation guideline makes a lot of sense to me. If the possessive of a word ending in "s" is pronounced as though the syllable "seas" is added to the end of it, then form the possessive by appending "'s" to the word: "boss's approval" is pronounced "boss-seas approval." However I disagree with one of the examples: "Jesus' parables." Wouldn't one pronounce that "Jesus-seas parables" so that it would be written as "Jesus's parables?" Consider a less lofty example: "Jesus's eyes." I would not pronounce that like "Jesus eyes;" I would pronounce it like "Jesus-seas eyes." Would I be wrong?

In general you can't use apostrophes to make words plural, but there are a few exceptions (if you accept "New York Times" style or consider letters to be words).

There are some examples in the episode on this page. See the paragraphs about "CD's" and making letters plural.

I've been having a discussion with my 4th grade son about apostrophes and using them to make a word plural. I told him I don't believe you can. Are there every any cases where you can use an apostrophes to make a word plural and if so do you have some examples? Thanks

This podcast reminds me of another issue which often comes up in my writing. Is it allowed to use the possessive form for inanimate objects? Often, I can avoid the inanimate possessive easily, but other times, I can't get rid of it without making the sentence clumsy. I think it's fine, but my friends disagree. Who's right? I would love to hear a podcast about this topic.

According to Punctuate It Right! p.43, Harry Shaw says to, "Use the apostrophe alone to form the possessive of a plural noun ending in s .

Two weeks' notice.

Hope this helps.

The word plaintiff is a noun defined as one who brings a law suit. You would not use it to describe a school district.

quick grammar issue.
"There are 236 plaintiffs school districts in CEE."

Is "plaintiff school districts" correct? That is what I'm tending towards, but wanted to know the rule.

I am trying to find out the correct punctuation of the phrase, "two weeks notice." Does it get an apostrophe? I thought it was "two weeks' notice" because it is a possessive, but I've seen it as "two week's notice" and "two weeks notice". Help!

Hi Emily,

The first part of your question concerns making a Greek name plural. Patricia T. O’Conner says in her book, Woe Is I, to add es to names ending in the letter s. (p.21). Signing your Christmas cards, The Metropolises, makes good sense and soothes the ear, as well.


The second part of your question concerns using apostrophes to show possession. Good news! In his book, Punctuate It Right!, Harry Shaw uses two Greek multi-syllabic names to illustrate his point.

He says, “ In words of more than one syllable ending in s or s sound, add an apostrophe only: Themistocles’ strategy, Aristophanes’ plays, Berlioz’ compositions.” (p.43)

So, if you were planning to invite aardvark to your summer home, you would send him an invitation requesting the pleasure of his company at the Metropolis’ summer home.

Hope this helps.

Years ago I was trying to save time while helping my mom write out family Christmas cards by signing our last name (plural) alone instead of The (our name) Family. She wouldn't let me continue because we didn't know how to make it plural. It's a Greek last name that ends in "is" like the Greek word metropolis. Instead of the last name Richards where the final letter s is vocal (pronounced like a z, not an s), our last name would require the added z sound after the final s sound. So if Metropolis were a Greek last name, and I wanted to sign a card with something that would be read The Metropolis-iz, how would I do that? Is it just The Metropolis'? And in that case, is the plural the Metropolis's summer home, for example?

Have you noticed the poster for The Robinsons (no relation ;-)

It has: wait 'til you meet the family of the future.

(Till or until of course being the correct form.)

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/meettherobinsons/

(Unless GG corrects me!) Your son 'owns' the return, so yes, it's: my son's return.

If you were waiting for two (or more) sons, it would be: my sons' return.

My question is reagarding the following: I am waiting for my son's return.

I am only referring to 1 son. Do I need the apostrophe?

Is this correct? I've searched all over the internet for references on this topic, but cannot find the answer anywhere. My problem is that I don't know if it should be Schmitz' pencil or Schmitz's pencil. According to Linfs, I would use the former. Thanks!

I've looked this up in a bunch of different places. I found conflicting answering, none of which seemed definitively convincing.

I prefer "doctor appointment" because it makes more sense to me (it's my appointment with the doctor, so doctor is modifying appointment), but "doctor's appointment" seems to be more common.

Sorry I can't be more helpful!

It would be "37 years' experience", and you can tell by comparing the singular forms: "One year of experience" vs. "One year's experience."

What about a doctor's appointment. Is that correct? Does the doctor own the appointment?

One of my co-workers is writing an evaluation for a program she is conducting later this month. One of the statements states,"I know more about SCC services, procedures and programs then I did before attending the event."

SCC is the location (College in this case) need a possesive apostrophe?

Y'all: Short for you all; you all need to get to the meeting. You all's meeting is running late. Ergo, y'all's. Of course it should actually be "your meeting," but I tried...

Grammar Girl, This had two separate parts of a question. I believe you answered the first part, but not the second.

It would be "37 years experience OR 37 years of experience." There is no apostrophe because "years" is plural, not possessive. You are not putting an apostrophe because the "of" is missing. With or without the "of" is correct.

Actually I believe it was the party that people were being invited to and not their birthdays (as they were on separate days) so it should be "Bill Packer & Len Winston's 40th birthday party."

That's exactly what she was addressing on Ophra. It was most interesting.

Can someone comment on the apostrophe use for a last name ending in a double s? I inherited the name through marriage and never feel as though I'm writing the plural form correctly. On an invitation, is our party at the Chambliss' or the Chambliss's or the Chamblisses? When signing a greeting from all of us, are we the Chambliss', the Chambliss's or the Chamblisses? I try to follow what others do, but I see it so many ways, I don't know which is correct!

"O'Brien's" looks strange, but it is correct!

I appreciate your clarifying the use of apostrophes. I was wondering if there is a rule about a word containing more than one? If the car belongs to O'Brien is it O'Brien's car? It looks so strange to me. Thanks!

If two people share something you only put the apostrophe "s" after the last name (John and Susie's dog), but if you are talking about separate things that they don't share, then each name gets an apostrophe "s" (John's and Susie's dogs).

Grammar Girl, After listening to both apostrophe pod casts, I was left wondering about multiple subjects. When I write: John's and Susie's dog was barking, do I put an apostrophe s after each name because the dog belongs to both John and Susie, or do I simply put it after Susie? I've seen it both ways, but I seem to remember my junior high English teacher telling the class to put an apostrophe s after both owners. Thanks for the help!

I have an argument for adding an apostrophe+s to the ends of singular nouns that end in s.

Controversy: Thomas's book or Thomas' book?

I'm a proponent of the form "Thomas's" mainly because I find the other form visually distracting: in a flicker of a moment, I think that Thomas is plural -- but there is only one Thomas, not many Thomases. This may sound petty, but it actually distracts me a lot. Also, while "children's" might appear very briefly to be singular, the whole noun "children" is so recognizably plural that I don't find myself thinking that stuff like "children" is singular.

Interestingly, the only place I am happy with the other form (singular s-final noun followed by just an apostrophe and no additional s) is in the word Jesus'. I actually saw in a style guide that Jesus' was the only place it was okay to "violate" this rule I believe so strongly in, probably due to popular convention. I believe it only because I actually hear people say "Jesus" in church the same phonetic way they say "Jesus'." E.g., "In Jesus' name we pray." (Oh, God, what a mess of punctuation marks I've just made.) In other places, people will actually pronounce the two s's at the end of "Thomas's" (ta-mus-ez).

Wow, "E.g." looks awkward. I had originally left it uncapitalized, and then I changed it since it was the beginning of a sentence. Rawrrrr, I hope that's correct.

It has! Thanks again ...

Again, in Harry Shaw's Punctuate It Right! (p.43), he offers this advice:

"In one syllable proper names ending in s or an s sound add an apostrophe and s."

Jan Szucs's 40th birthday.

If your last name were multi-syllabic and ended with an "s" or "s" sound, you would put the apostrophe after the final "s" in your last name.

Jan Superszucs' 40th birthday.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your help - one more question:

Where does the apostrophe can with a name like mine? Szucs ... one of those s things!

You are invited to celebrate Bill Packer's & Jan Szucs's 40th birthdays!

or

You are invited to celebrate Bill Packer's & Jan Szucs' 40th birthdays!

I'd like to get this right ...

Thanks again.

Punctuate It Right! (p.43) says,"Use an apostrophe with each element in a series to indicate alternative or individual possession." This means that when the items have individual possession, such as the birthdays to which you refer, you will need an apostrophe for each man's name because each man has his own special day.

Squiggly's and aardvark's birthdays will be celebrated later this year. Grammar Girl will not reveal their ages!

The party is shared and the birthdays are not. So depending on how you word the invitation, you could write it two different ways:

"You are invited to celebrate Bill's and Len's birthdays."

"You are invited to Bill and Len's 40th birthday party."

I have a question I would like help to answer. My husband and his friend have birthdays one day apart. We are having a party for them - so how should this go on the invitation? You are invited to Bill Packer & Len Winston's 40th birthdays? Or Bill Packer's & Len Winston's 40th birthdays? Thanks.

You can use bad as an adverb when it follows a linking verb such as feel, smell, and taste. So it is correct to say, "The children behaved badly," but it is also correct to say, "I feel bad." I covered this in more detail in the episode titled Bad Versus Badly.

Why would she be behind it when she said she would say Arkansas' vice Arkansas's? Did I miss something?

Girl, Saw you existed on Oprah today. So glad to find you!!! Apostrophes are my pet peeve. I do not feel it's a "style issue" whether or not to use apostrophe s or just an apostrophe after a name ending in s as much as it is a lack of education. People don't know any better any more, including the younger teachers, so they don't teach it. I have noticed in some of the elementary English books where the s' is not even taught any more. I would guess that Fowler, in Fowler's Modern English Usage, is younger also. As my maiden name was Sanders, I paid a great deal of attention to the s' that was used with my name, unlike most others’ names. When my own children went to elementary school, I spoke with each of their teachers before the lessons on showing possession, to be sure my child would not be counted wrong when using s' vice s's, because s's was what was going to be taught, but my children would not be using it.

What I did not see addressed was what to do when the word ended in a Z. That's not even addressed in English books anymore. A z is treated the same as an s (Mr. Rodriquez' watch, Mrs. Sanchez' necklace, the Melendez’ parents).

News announcers drive me crazy adding es (phonetically) to every name ending in s now. They are supposed to be setting examples and yet are showing their ignorance instead. You never used to hear that used. Arkansas? Oh my goodness, talk about their English going downhill. Like I said, apostrophes are my pet peeve.

On 1/4/07 you wrote, "I always feel bad." I have been under the impression that "badly" is correct. Please clarify. I saw you on Oprah! Good for you! How about "whether or not" and "if?" I was taught that just writing "whether" is incorrect. Thanks, Nancy

We have clarity on the possessive of Arkansas's!
AR House Passes Bill Declaring "Arkansas's" The Correct Possessive Form Of The State's Name

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006658673

I have no proof, bu I think that Grammar Girl was behind this.

Great website. Keep the Audio please. And don't change it! It's perfect! I find it extremely helpful. You make a great teacher.

Helmut

I'm pretty sure there is an apostrophe. My understanding is that it is effectively "37 years of experience," so when you cut out the "of," you use an apostrophe. I choose to think of those years owning the experience that they provided, and that helps me remember.

What a great site! Here's another apostrophe puzzle. In the phrase, "She has 37 years(') experience...," is there an apostrophe or not? Why?

(James' mom) just sent me a link to this great story about Arkansas debating whether to add a final "s" when making their state name possessive.

Hi Grammar Girl - Just recently found your site and enjoy downloading podcasts and listening to your tips--good stuff. I was recently listening to your July '06 explanations re: "i.e." vs. "e.g." I must say, at the risk of sounding scathing, that your pronunciation of "etc." is wrong, s