Episode Transcript

Between You and Me
Episode 64: June 26, 2007

Grammar Girl here.

Just between you and me, today I'm going to talk about the pronouns I and me.

I've been meaning to talk about the phrase between you and I for a while, but when I heard that Hillary Clinton had chosen the song “You and I” by Celine Dion for her campaign theme song, I knew  it was finally the right time to tackle this topic!

That's because Celine Dion's song “You and I” is grammatically correct, whereas the Jessica Simpson song “Between You and I” is incorrect.

First the basics: the words you, I, and me are all pronouns. They stand in for nouns like Hillary, Jessica, and Grammar Girl.

Pronouns can be subjects, objects, or possessive. I've talked about this before—the subject of a sentence is the agent taking action, and the object is the thing or person being acted upon. If I say, “I love you,” I am the subject (the one doing the loving), and you are the object (the target of my love and the object of my affection).

A possessive pronoun shows that the thing or person possesses something. I won't talk about possessive pronouns anymore today, because they aren't relevant to the topic.

This next part you just kind of have to know. If you've been speaking English for a long time, you probably know it whether you think you do or not, and if you are learning English you just have to memorize it.

I is a subject pronoun, and me is an object pronoun.

The proper sentence is I love you, not Me love you. You use I because the pronoun is the subject of the sentence, and I is the subjective pronoun. And if you've been speaking English your whole life, your ear quickly picks up the difference between right and wrong. I play the marimbas versus Me play the marimbas.

Squiggly loves me is the proper sentence, not Squiggly loves I. I'm the target of Squiggly's love, so I'm in the object position in that sentence, and the objective pronoun is me. Again, in most cases your ear should pick up the difference. He gave the marimbas to me versus He gave the marimbas to I.

The reason it gets a little tricky when you combine I and me with you is that  you is both a subjective and an objective pronoun. It's one of those confusing things that just isn't fair. Whether it is in the subject or the object position, you still use the word you. You love Squiggly and Squiggly loves you. They are both correct.

Here's why the song title “You and I” is correct: The title comes from the line You and I were meant to fly. In that line, you and I are both in the subject case. We're taking action—flying.

That seems pretty straightforward. So now we can move on to “Between You and I” and figure out why it's wrong.

Between is a preposition, just as on, above, over, and of are prepositions. Because prepositions usually either describe a relationship, or show possession, they don’t act alone; they often answer questions like Where? and When? For example, if I said, “Keep that secret between you and me,” between describes where the secret is to be kept. If I said, “I'll tell you the secret on July 5,” on describes when the secret will be revealed.

So, instead of acting alone, prepositions are part of prepositional phrases. In those example sentences, between you and me and on July 5 are prepositional phrases. And it's just a rule that pronouns following prepositions in those phrases are always in the objective case (1). When you're using the objective case, the correct pronoun is me, so the correct prepositional phrase is between you and me.

Most grammarians are sympathetic to people who say between you and I because it's considered a hypercorrection. The theory is that people have been so traumatized by being corrected when they say things such as Ashley and me went to the mall instead of Ashley and I went to the mall that they incorrectly correct between you and me to between you and I (2, 3, 4). I don't have anything against Jessica Simpson. I know I indirectly picked on her last week too because she was in the video I posted on the blog showing George Bush saying, “nuclear power pants.” But if remembering that her song “Between You and I” is wrong helps you remember the rule, then she's done a service to the world.

That's all.

My e-mail address is feedback@qdnow.com, and my voice-mail line is 206-338-GIRL. That's 206-338-4475. Thanks for listening.

References

  1. Strumpf, M. and Douglas, A. The Grammar Bible. New York: Henry Holt and Company, 2004,  p. 208.
  2. Garner, B. A. Garner's Modern American Usage. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003, p. 100.
  3. HiDuke, J. “Frequently Asked Questions.” Dr. Grammar Website. 2001, www.drgrammar.org/faqs/ (accessed June 25, 2007).
  4. Brians, P. “I/You/Me.” Common Errors in English. wsu.edu/~brians/errors/myself.html (accessed June 25, 2007).

Comments (44) for Between You and Me |  Subscribe to Comment

barbara jo gauthier Says:
5/11/2008 2:07:28 PM
maybe I should clarify that how about the relationship between him and me is great? Am I using the pronouns correctly?
barbara jo gauthier Says:
5/11/2008 2:04:56 PM
maybe I should clarify that how about the relationship between him and me is great? Am I using the pronouns correctly?
barbara jo gauthier Says:
5/11/2008 2:02:28 PM
is then, to say between HIM and Me correct?
barbara jo gauthier Says:
5/11/2008 2:00:54 PM
is then, to day between HIM and Me correct?
Patricia Says:
5/3/2008 2:12:00 AM
Is there a difference in using insure and ensure?
Anne Says:
5/1/2008 3:10:33 PM
A friend and I disagree....Which is correct here? How can I accept you if you believe something different than me? How can I accept you if you believe something different than I?
Mukesh sharma Says:
5/1/2008 11:25:41 AM
i like it. please send some audio or video podcast so that i could avail myself from them.
Dr. Kathryn Zalevsky-Kittides Says:
2/28/2008 11:53:31 PM
I find that it helps students to see the relationship among grammar parts when one creates a chart, as is done in other Indo European Languages that have cases such as Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Instrumental, Preposition - that exist in Russian, other Slavic Languages, and in part in Greek, German and some others. By showing the relationship, for example, of how Subject Personal Pronouns relate to Object Personal Pronouns, students who have studied other languages-even the Latin based languages- get the ah ha feeling and intensify their learning in that structure= Singular I-me You-You He-Him She-Her It-It ________ Plural We-Us You-You They-Them Examples are also added. Many of your explanations can be further illuminated with some cross language/chart examples.
Dr. Kathryn Zalevsky-Kittides Says:
2/28/2008 11:53:12 PM
I find that it helps students to see the relationship among grammar parts when one creates a chart, as is done in other Indo European Languages that have cases such as Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Instrumental, Preposition - that exist in Russian, other Slavic Languages, and in part in Greek, German and some others. By showing the relationship, for example, of how Subject Personal Pronouns relate to Object Personal Pronouns, students who have studied other languages-even the Latin based languages- get the ah ha feeling and intensify their learning in that structure= Singular I-me You-You He-Him She-Her It-It ________ Plural We-Us You-You They-Them Examples are also added. Many of your explanations can be further illuminated with some cross language/chart examples.
Dr. Kathryn Zalevsky-Kittides Says:
2/28/2008 11:52:54 PM
I find that it helps students to see the relationship among grammar parts when one creates a chart, as is done in other Indo European Languages that have cases such as Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Instrumental, Preposition - that exist in Russian, other Slavic Languages, and in part in Greek, German and some others. By showing the relationship, for example, of how Subject Personal Pronouns relate to Object Personal Pronouns, students who have studied other languages-even the Latin based languages- get the ah ha feeling and intensify their learning in that structure= Singular I-me You-You He-Him She-Her It-It ________ Plural We-Us You-You They-Them Examples are also added. Many of your explanations can be further illuminated with some cross language/chart examples.
Albert Says:
2/7/2008 9:03:05 PM
James (6/26/2007) is wrong. In “You and me, we used to be together”, ‘you’ and ‘me’ are still the subjects of the sentence, so it should be "You and I, we used to be together." However, many people would say that it is colloquially correct (or acceptable), just as “It’s me” is acceptable, and “It is I” sounds like somebody putting on airs and graces. How does Zach Everson (6/26/2007) know who is a native French speaker? JohnRzeznik Says: 6/28/2007 6:09:03 AM Where this phrase bugs me is seeing captions to photographs of people... For example, a photo of two friends, with a caption that says "Bob and I", when it should really be "Bob and me"... This is really just short for "(This is a picture of) Bob and me"... Again, I think it's just the hyper correction... ----- John should really get out more if this bugs him. How do you know, John, that the captioner is abbreviating “(This is a picture of) Bob and me”? He might be saying “Bob and I (celebrate my birthday)” or “Bob and I (stand next to a big fish I just caught).” What people write in their own photograph albums is up to them. “Bob and I” on its own just sounds pretentious to me. Paul Says: 7/19/2007 7:42:09 AM You avoided discussing the most egregious use of "me." I just cringe when I hear someone say, "Me and my wife went to the movies." That's just wrong on SO many levels, but I hear it on a DAILY basis. ----- OK, Paul, on exactly how many levels is this wrong? I can only see that it is wrong on one level. It should be, “My wife and I went to the movies.” I could suggest, being English, that ‘movies’ is objectionable, and we would say, “My wife and I went to the pictures.” Perhaps Paul is suggesting that husbands should not take their wives to the cinema. sam Says: 7/21/2007 5:10:22 AM How about "We're like two peas in a pod, you and me"? Is this a prepositional phrase, and thus it should be "me"? I thought it should be "I" because I can re-arrange the phrase to be "You and I are like two peas in a pod" (me would be incorrect there..) but I'm not sure. Any clues? ----- -------- What on earth are you on about, sam? How can “you and me” be a prepositional phrase? You were right when you re-arranged it. “You and I” just explains what “we” means, so it is in the same (subject) case. If it were not for the explanation, I might have meant, “We’re like two peas in a pod, my brother and I.” David Hough Says: 11/9/2007 5:37:31 PM Slightly off topic - it's me. French uses disjunctive pronouns - 'c'est moi' in place of 'c'est je' and dignifies with a grand name that which we pedants in English call an error. You cannot really use another language to decide what is right or wrong in English. The French stressed or disjunctive pronouns (moi, toi, lui, elle, nou, vous, eux, elles) are used in many situations where we would use subject pronouns, e.g. for emphasis: Moi, je ne vais pas le faire [I am not going to do it], and in comparisons: I am taller than he (is), [je suis plus grand que lui] and in some cases where we would use object pronouns, e.g. after prepositions: Come with me [Venez avec moi]. See french.about.com for more. So when the French say “C’est moi”, they may saying “It is me” or they may be saying “It is I”. It just sounds (to us) a bit like “It is me”, but a correct translation, would be “it is I” if you are being pedantic, or “it is me” if you are being colloquial. John Says: 7/2/2007 2:29:34 PM No, because new-born babies have an instinct to acquire langage, and barring any development defects, they do acquire much of it before they start school. http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html ----- John is right when he says that children acquire language naturally. They also pick up the rules. But there are so many irregularities that they often make mistakes early on. You may sometimes hear a small child say, “I catched the ball.” If a child always hears “between you and me”, that’s what he will say. If he always hears “between you and I”, he will think that is right. I have nothing more to say on this subject. [Thank God, they all cry.]
John Says:
1/22/2008 12:08:58 PM
Glenn, it's true that reference to incorrect usage doesn't make it less incorrect. But the fact that a usage has been used for 500 years by some of the best writers of English suggests that it is grammatical. It might not be acceptable in certain kinds of writing, but it is part of the grammar of English. "between you and I" was used for hundreds of years before 1860, which is when someone decided that it was "incorrect". I don't buy the argument that writers are not obligated to follow the rules of grammar. What special club do you have to join that exempts you from the rules of grammar? Shakespeare did not "make it up as he went along" - his language had rules of grammar, they just weren't written down.
Glenn Says:
12/12/2007 12:05:30 PM
John, I'm not really sure about everything that you mean to imply, but I agree that the term "hyper-correction" is mis-applied here--it's simply an "in-correction" or a "mis-correction"; Heather (or whoever) was told not to use "Ashley and me went ..." but to use "Ashley and I went ..." but wasn't told why, so she made up her own rules as to why--incorrect rules derived from incorrect usage breeding more incorrect usage... something Heather's English teacher should have taught her (but since when do all kids listen to their teachers?). However, back in Shakespeare's time and well into the 19th century they didn't even have standardized word spellings, let alone standardized rules of grammar; they just made it up as they went along, including Pepys. Besides, poets (as well as song writers with their lyrics) have never been obligated to follow actual rules of grammar when they do exist (and rightly so)--that would detract from the "art". Reference to incorrect usage hardly makes incorrect usage less incorrect. Of course, people do simply accept something as truth because they hear it over and over again, regardless of the source, regardless of it being right or wrong... how else would we ever have things like racism and sexism and bunches of other "isms". That's why we have teachers... and grammar guides (thank you, Grammar Girl!).
David Hough Says:
11/9/2007 5:37:31 PM
Slightly off topic - it's me. French uses disjunctive pronouns - 'c'est moi' in place of 'c'est je' and dignifies with a grand name that which we pedants in English call an error.
Megan P Says:
9/24/2007 5:55:47 PM
These tips are great! I never really understood grammar and now I'm starting to get it. Thanks
Magningning Says:
9/16/2007 11:57:59 AM
What really bothers me is that the hypercorrection of the use of "me" has gone so far as to render "me" almost a dirty word for would-be proper speakers of English. It's as if they think "me" is akin to "ain't" and that only uneducated people use it. This has given rise to another, equally obnoxious mistake: the replacement of "me" with "myself." I hear things like, "The people included will be myself, Jim, and Sara" or "Make sure to tell David or myself when you leave." Not only is it silly that these speakers are afraid of the word "me," but they are committing yet another grammatical error as "myself" should only be used reflexively and should only take "I" as its subject. "I touch myself."
Bulaklak Says:
9/16/2007 11:50:35 AM
I am actually not a huge fan of the "taking out everyone else" method. In the long run, I think that kind of backwards-working only complicates things more (and is really only part of the picture.) Much simpler and more direct (and complete) is to just know the difference between subjects and objects, period. If people learned that difference from the beginning, there wouldn't ever be the need to perform little tricks in one's head or under one's breath. I = subject; me = object. Plain, simple.
Bulaklak Says:
9/16/2007 11:49:00 AM
I am actually not a huge fan of the "taking out everyone else" method. In the long run, I think that kind of backwards-working only complicates things more (and is really only part of the picture.) Much simpler and more direct (and complete) is to just know the difference between subjects and objects, period. If people learned that difference from the beginning, there wouldn't ever be the need to perform little tricks in one's head or under one's breath. I = subject; me = object. Plain, simple.
sam Says:
7/21/2007 5:10:22 AM
How about "We're like two peas in a pod, you and me"? Is this a prepositional phrase, and thus it should be "me"? I thought it should be "I" because I can re-arrange the phrase to be "You and I are like two peas in a pod" (me would be incorrect there..) but I'm not sure. Any clues? ----- --------
Paul Says:
7/19/2007 7:42:09 AM
You avoided discussing the most egregious use of "me." I just cringe when I hear someone say, "Me and my wife went to the movies." That's just wrong on SO many levels, but I hear it on a DAILY basis. -----
JOhn Says:
7/3/2007 2:59:09 AM
Here's a thesis on case and ordering in conjoined pronouns, and why two pronouns joined by "and" often don't seem to obey the traditionally prescribed rules of case. http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~zwicky/Grano.finalthesis.pdf -----
aardvark Says:
7/2/2007 11:51:10 PM
aardvark's babies (Pre, Scrip, and Tive) were taught that despite old literary and historical references using between you and I, standard English (and the writers of standardized tests such as the ACT and SAT) dictates that we use an objective personal pronoun when it is the object of a preposition. When those babies ask me, " Where did Grammar Girl go on her much deserved vacation? I answer, "Just between you and me." -----
Tom Says:
7/2/2007 10:22:46 PM
Yes, new-born babies are born with an innate ability to acquire language, but that language acquisition device is useless unless the child has exposure to its mother tongue. Through observation and instruction, a child (using the instincts it is born with) learns to speak. A child starting school (even a normally developing child) still has a lot of developing to do - complex syntax structures such as passive voice and infinitive phrases, for example. In answer to your original question "...is this rule a real part of native speakers' English, or is it an artificial prescription?" Yes. I know of many English speakers (myself included) for whom this structure is part of the natural language and not artificial prescription. -----
John Says:
7/2/2007 2:29:34 PM
No, because new-born babies have an instinct to acquire langage, and barring any development defects, they do acquire much of it before they start school. http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html -----
Tom Says:
7/2/2007 6:06:46 AM
Quite right, it definitely is not part of everybody's natural language. But this does not make it "artificial prescription". In order for it to be part of Standard English, it must be part of somebody's natural English (perhaps a shrinking majority?). As for Tim's eight-year-old, last week I worked with a 9-year-old girl with mild autism. She thought that "under" and "on" could be used interchangeably. That was her natural language. Was I wrong to make her use these words "correctly"? Obviously not, but where do you draw the line? If you think about it, for a new-born baby, all language could be considered "artificial prescription". -----
John Says:
6/29/2007 6:11:51 PM
My last sentence should read: The commenter Tim has to teach his 8-year old son to use I and me "correctly", which implies that the "correct" usage is not a natural part of his son's language. -----
John Says:
6/29/2007 2:05:24 PM
It clearly doesn't sound "off" to everyone, since it has been produced by native speakers in speech and casual writing for 400 years. The commenter Tim has to teach his 8-year old son to use it, which implies that it's not a natural part of his son's language. -----
Jean Says:
6/29/2007 6:20:54 AM
I recently wrote an article in which I used the sentence "working on the car gave Ryan and me something to do during the summer." When the article was published, the editor had changed it to "working on the car gave Ryan and I something to do during the summer." I wanted to cry. There it was in print,and I could do nothing about it, knowing that everyone who read the article would think I had written it that way. -----
Tom Says:
6/29/2007 5:50:37 AM
Two different (but similar) concepts, both correct. GG's version seems to be incomplete: "[Listening to audible's audiobooks] reaaly made the time go by faster" Faster than what? Faster than another company's audiobooks would?, faster than regular podcasts do?) -----
Thad Says:
6/29/2007 3:46:04 AM
From the transcript: > it really made the time go by faster I would say, "it really made the time go by quickly." Which is correct? -----
Tom Says:
6/29/2007 2:35:30 AM
I don't think it's an articficial prescription, "Between you and I" sounds off to my ear. French also has different pronoun forms depending on case (subject, object, possessive)so it's not really surprising that a native French speaker can make the distinction. -----
Tom Says:
6/29/2007 2:23:56 AM
I had two primary school teachers and a mother-in-law who tried to tell me that no matter the situation, you should always put yourself last and it should always be 'I'. Bill and I went to the shops. *Sam went to the shops with Bill and I. I tried to explain the rule mentioned above, (take everyone else out - Sam went to the shops with I) but all I got was a condescending look down the nose! -----
brienne Says:
6/28/2007 4:24:18 PM
Oh thank you so much. -----
cabreu74@yahoo.com Says:
6/28/2007 3:12:31 PM
I'd like to subscribe to this blog. Thank you! -----
JohnRzeznik Says:
6/28/2007 6:09:03 AM
Where this phrase bugs me is seeing captions to photographs of people... For example, a photo of two friends, with a caption that says "Bob and I", when it should really be "Bob and me"... This is really just short for "(This is a picture of) Bob and me"... Again, I think it's just the hyper correction... -----
bdf Says:
6/26/2007 8:58:33 PM
Speaking of songs, I cringe whenever I hear the Bodean's "Good Things": "No no no, don't pass me over / No no no, don't pass me by / See, I can see good things for you and I" Barf. -----
Laura Says:
6/26/2007 8:24:47 PM
I have to admit, this phrase does mess me up. -----
John Says:
6/26/2007 5:42:02 PM
Which makes you think... is this rule a real part of native speakers' English, or is it an artifical prescription? It seems to me that it's the latter. I don't mean to say that it's not logical or useful, but simply that it is not a natural part of the language. -----
Asher Says:
6/26/2007 4:44:12 PM
I think that Sesame Street should worry more about Cookie Monster's grammar (i.e. "Me love cookies!") and less about his eating habits
Zach Everson Says:
6/26/2007 3:56:37 PM
It's interesting that the native French speaker got the grammar right, whereas the native English speaker did not. -----
Tim Says:
6/26/2007 1:25:31 PM
That is how I have been teaching my 8-year-old son to correctly use "I" and "me." I tell him to remove everyone else from the sentance and see if it still sounds right. I can hear him doing this under his breath sometimes. It makes me proud. -----
James Says:
6/26/2007 1:07:25 PM
Actually, I think both examples are grammatically correct. "You and me used to be together" would be wrong, but by saying "You and me, we used to be together", it's "we" that is doing be "being together", not the "you and me"; therefore "you and me" is correct. Would you be able to clarify this, Grammar Girl? Every time I watch Mythbusters, I notice that Adam always says "you and I" when it should be "you and me". I think to myself, "Remove everyone apart from yourself from the sentence and you'll see that it doesn't make sense." -----
Rodrigo Says:
6/26/2007 12:45:07 PM
Great lesson, as always! The first song I remembered when I saw the topic's title was No Doubt's "Don't Speak'. The song starts with "You and me, we used to be together", which I believe is wrong (it's just to rhyme with "be"). Then, the song says: "As we die, both you and I...", which I believe is correct (and, yes, "I" rhymes with "die"). -----
John Says:
6/26/2007 12:36:00 PM
"between you and I" has been part of English since at least the 1600s, 200 years before grammar was taught in school. For this reason, I don't think you can blame it on hypercorrection. all debts are cleared between you and I - Merchant of Venice, act 3, scene 2 ...and many high words between Mr. Povy and I - Samuel Pepys, diary 1664 -----

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