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Grammar Manners
Episode 36: January 12, 2007

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Grammar Girl here.

Today's topic is how to correct other people's grammar.

Dr. David asked about how he can correct other people's grammar without losing friends or sounding like a snob. A couple of people, whom I won't name, asked how to deal with bad grammar in the workplace, for example, what to do when their boss butchers the English language. To me, these seem more like manners questions than grammar questions, so I have invited the host of Modern Manners Guy Quick and Dirty Tips for a More Polite Life to step in and provide an answer. Here's Mr. Manners:

Thanks, Grammar Girl! It can be a delicate issue deciding when to correct someone’s grammar, so let’s start with a few basic principles.

If the person whom you wish to correct is your child, student, or employee, you should, of course, feel comfortable (if not obligated) to correct his or her grammar, providing you do it in a polite and constructive manner. If the child, student, or employee is an adult, and it is outside of a classroom setting, you should also do so in private. In any other case, you must ask yourself if the person you wish to correct would actually like to be corrected. If the answer is “no,” then you should keep it to yourself. One exception to this is if you are putting together a work product, and there is a grammatical error that would make you or your company look bad. In this case, you should just suggest the edit and your reasoning behind the correction and refrain from delivering a grammar lesson.

If you do wish to correct the grammar of someone whom you truly believe would welcome and appreciate the correction, then start by asking them if it is OK to offer a suggestion. You might say something like, “This is kind of a delicate issue, but I was wondering if it would be all right if I were to offer you a grammatical suggestion—you know I’m kind of a grammar nerd.” This gives the person the opportunity to welcome your suggestion and not feel bad (as you have pointed out your unusual interest in grammar). And of course, be certain that you understand the specific grammatical rules and how to apply them before making a correction.

But again, if you are not sure the person would welcome the correction, then it is better to keep the issue to yourself.

A more subtle approach can be just using correct grammar yourself—not in a pedantic way but just as a good example. And of course you can always point them to the great new podcast you have discovered: Grammar Girl. Who knows? They might even end up a little more polite as well.

Thank you for listening to Modern Manners Guy's Quick and Dirty Tips for a More Polite Life. And thank you Grammar Girl.

Thank you, Mr. Manners! He gives such great advice; I know that I can always rely on him for a good solution when I have an etiquette problem. If you enjoyed his answer, you can subscribe to his show at iTunes by searching for “Modern Manners,” and you can also find his webpage at quickanddirtytips.com.

That's all.

Ralph M. from Coronado, California, is the winner in this week's book giveaway. He left a comment on the Grammar Girl blog, which entered him into the giveaway, and now he wins the final copy of Robbin Knapp's German English Words: A Popular Dictionary of German Words Used in English. Congratulations, Ralph, and please check your e-mail for instructions.

Also, I have a quick favor to ask. When I first started this podcast, people said that nobody would care about grammar, and even after it became popular, people asked me if I was sure listeners didn't think they were subscribing to Glamor Girl. Well, a website called digg.com just started a podcast directory where you can “digg,” or vote, for podcasts that you enjoy. Right now, 12 out of the top 15 podcasts in their directory are technology podcasts, and I would love to have Grammar Girl rank in the top 15 to show people that grammar really does matter! So if you want to help, the website to go to if you want to vote is digg.com (that's d-i-g-g with two g's), and I'll also put a link in the Grammar Girl blog at QuickAndDirtyTips.com so you can go directly to the Grammar Girl page at digg.com.

Thank you for listening. Please send questions and comments to feedback@quickanddirtytips.com or use the voice-mail line at 206-338-GIRL (4475). And if you enjoyed Mr. Manners, don't forget to subscribe to his show.

Comments (48) for Grammar Manners | Subscribe to Comment

Cherie Says:
11/6/2007 11:49:58 PM

Hi Grammar Girl, Say a person has been speaking improper grammar since childhood and as an adult wants to improve their skills in this area. What can they do to change they way they speak?

sana Says:
8/2/2007 8:34:54 PM

hi mrs grammmar girl first think i want to tell you please help me in grammar because this week in summer school i have a finel exam in grammar if i faild in grammar or writing i'm going to next level please help me ok because i'm just come to usa i'm english secand language please help me ok thank you a lot

Sooki Says:
7/18/2007 12:28:52 AM

Yes, I agree. However, I think the use of the word "them" in the second sentence is far more objectionable.

aardvark Says:
7/2/2007 3:12:27 AM

Yes, your reasoning is correct.

aardvark would add that you truly believe is a clause in itself (also called a parenthetical expression), so by removing that clause, you are left with who would welcome.

Hope this helps.

Suzie Blowfeldt Says:
7/2/2007 2:34:23 AM

Suzie again. Previous comments on this page mention the same thing. Someone gave an excellent example: "Give the award to whoever earned it." Hypercorrection might cause some people to use "whomever," but, as we can clearly see, "whoever" is the subject of the verb "earned."

A bit ironic that Grammar Girl's page would contain this error, even if she did not write it.

Suzie Blowfeldt Says:
7/2/2007 2:30:49 AM

I think Mr. Manners made a grammatical mistake of his own.

“If you do wish to correct the grammar of someone whom you truly believe would welcome and appreciate the correction…”

The “whom” should be a “who” because it is the subject of the clause “[Who] you truly believe would welcome and appreciate the correction.” If we removed the “you truly believe,” which modifies “who,” then we would have, “If you do wish to correct the grammar of someone who…would welcome and appreciate the correction…” Whom would be inappropriate. Is my reasoning correct, Grammar Girl?

aardvark Says:
6/14/2007 12:09:00 AM

Hi Dyanne,

This question can be answered in several ways.

If the newspaper were literally stuck to John because Squiggley left honey on it, a wind came up, and the newspaper then blew onto John's back, then your husband's version is correct.

All kidding aside, your husband's version is an informal use of the preposition off. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) 28

Your version is standard English usage, using the preposition from.

" I borrowed this newspaper from John."

Hope this helps.

Dyanne Says:
6/13/2007 3:02:45 AM

My husband says, "I got this newspaper off John". I say it should be from John. Who is correct??

Nikki Says:
5/25/2007 2:08:09 PM

I believe it should be Michael and I. You can test it by separating the two and changing the verb to be appropriate: Michael is going out to play, I am going out to play. You would never say Michael is going out to play, me is going out to play, right? However, me is appropriate in other contexts like Joe gave a gift to Michael and me because you could split them out and say Joe gave a gift to Michael, Joe gave a gift to me. Make sense?

Jo Says:
5/25/2007 3:50:42 AM

Hi, My husband is always correcting our children when they say me and someone. He says it should be someone and I. I was also corrected as a child for this and wanted to find out once and for all what is the correct way of saying this. e.g "me and Michael are going to the park to play" or is it "Michael and I are going to the park to play" Id love to hear the correct answer.
Kind regards
Jo

Monica Says:
5/21/2007 7:02:15 PM

I've got the explanation for:NONE that I've requested but nobody answered me which one is the correct option:
None of the bags IS leather
OR
None of the bags ARE leather

Phil Says:
4/1/2007 8:52:27 PM

I am new to Grammar Girl and this site and apologize if the question has been definitively answered. Nonetheless, I think the error so pervasive and yet so easy to answer that I will offer my take. "Who" is correct here. Simply put, every verb requires a subject, and "who" is the subject of "would welcome and appreciate." Steve and Paul are correct. Here's an example to clarify.

Imagine you are to give an award to a student in your class. You ask me whom you should choose, and I respond: "Give the award to whoever earned it." Here, "whoever" is the subject of "earned" and thus correct. But what is the object of "to," a preposition that clearly takes an object? The answer is that "whoever earned it" is a noun clause and can serve as subject or object. That entire phrase is the object.

berissa rose Says:
3/27/2007 3:27:32 AM

Fogarty I'm just curious to where I can buy one of your book's or audiotape. I saw you on Oprah and very please that there is a book that helps with Grammar Writting. Please e-mail me back I appreciate it very much.

Thanks Berissa

berry hull Says:
3/13/2007 12:24:49 AM

What you are to "answer with" depends on what's true: Like "He aint here" or like "He don't much want to talk with you."

The serene stupidity of folks who speak of grammar as what they have and others need -- it blows minds.

Grammar Girl Says:
3/13/2007 12:16:48 AM

This is she.

Shawn Says:
3/12/2007 5:03:12 PM

When answering the phone and the person calling asks "May I speak to Shawn"? Do I answer with "This is she", or "This is her"?

Russ Says:
2/26/2007 7:26:19 PM

And today President Bush he's going to Camp David. 2. The infant's mother, Anna Nicole Smith, she's . . . I'm wondering when the sentence structure such as the above found its way into the English language and what your view on the topic might be. Also, I'd be interested in your view on the following construction: I wonder where he's at now? What happened to I wonder where he is? A third item that I'm actually curious about is what the word actually actually accomplishes in sentences. Could actually actually be actually meaningless today? And along with what appears to be ignorance of past particles in English (such as They should've went there yesterday.), to whom does one address one's concerns when all of the above recur almost daily on CNN news and in newspapers?

Grammar Girl Says:
1/30/2007 6:19:55 PM

You're right; mixing up those two words is a very common error! I discussed it in first apostrophe episode.

Peter Wood Says:
1/25/2007 3:24:35 PM

http://grammar.qdnow.com/2007/01/11/correcting-other-peoples-grammar.aspx#AddComment DATE: 1/25/2007 3:24:35 PM Your item on correcting other people's grammar reminds me of a topic I did not find listed in your index: "I/me." More and more often lately I have heard very highly placed speakers relate "a funny thing happened to Mary and I on the way here." I suspect this may stem from people having been corrected early in life when saying "Me and him went to the beach;" hence, "me" must be an incorrect word, so to be elegant, always use "I.' You would perform a great sevice if you could school the unschooled on "I/me."

Steve Thornton Says:
1/25/2007 4:45:05 AM

To respond to a parenthetical point, "you truly believe" is a restrictive phrase -- it's essential to the meaning of the sentence -- so it should not be enclosed by commas.

Regarding who vs whom in Paul's example: If we try: "Correct the grammar of someone who is young," we find that "who is young" is (I think) an adjectival phrase describing "someone." As such, "who" is the subject of the phrase.

The pronoun "who" or "whom" is the subject of the descriptive phrase "who you truly believe would welcome etc," not the object of "believe" -- the object of "believe" is what the belief is -- and the answer to that is what you think the person, the "someone," would believe -- and the answer to that is, "would welcome and appreciate the correction" -- not the pronoun, but the action of welcoming and appreciating.

So I think Paul may be correct: "who" is a subject in a long phrase that describes the objective noun "someone." I think this argument depends strongly on the point that "welcome and appreciate" is the object of the verb "believe" -- if you buy that, then the right form is "who."

Steve Says:
1/24/2007 7:21:40 PM

Hey Grammar Girl,

Lay vs Lie was my first episode of Grammar Girl, and I loved it. I teach ESL at the community college level, and wouldn't you know what showed up in class the very next day - one of my students wrote: "I got drunk and laid down in the snow for half an hour." Instead of panicking I pulled out my iPod when I got home, listened again, and corrected the error. How cool is that???!!!

Rick Says:
1/23/2007 1:11:00 PM

I really like Grammar Girl and plan to contribute to its popularity. I have noticed a surge in the phrase "I seen" and also using "at" on the end of a sentence. I usually frown (mentally) because I feel outnumbered by the many who commit this grammatical crime. I am no grammarthusist (sorry not a word) but am bothered by blatant grammatical errors. Should I just continue to just grin and bear it, so to speak?

Conan the Grammarian Says:
1/23/2007 1:56:04 AM

This is not really about correcting your grammar, but this seemed an appropriate place for my comment. I read today's CNN article about you and your work(22 Jan 07) and wanted to comment about the 's on plurals. I agree that both ways are correct. My teaching, however, was opposite to your preference. I taught that if you pronounce the extra S (Thomas's), you should write it also. My point was to try to impose some regularity on a generally irregular (let's face it: partially chaotic) grammar system. It's inevitable, given the scavenger nature of English in general, that our grammar is somewhat chaotic. If you've taught English grammar in a classroom, you know that it's an almost universally unpopular subject. I figured that anything that would make bits and pieces of it easier to understand and remember would be good. I also thought that you might like to hear the point of view of someone else who has worked in that field. When I taught English--which I haven't done for about 15 years now--I specialized in grammar. I think I was very good at it. Among the things that made me good was that I refused to teach diagramming. I taught my students to parse a sentence instead. With that, they at least didn't have to learn a bunch of unnecessary crap about where the various kinds of lines should go in the diagram. I always thought that junk just took you away from grammar. I was also happy to see a few minutes ago, on your site, that you accept the splitting of infinitives. I believe that "rule" came from a misinformed English teacher who thought that English grammar is based on Latin, where you cannot split an infinitive. In my view, it has always been permissible to split an English infinitive. In fact, it is often advisable to split an infinitive because it can often emphasize the modifier that does the splitting. This means that splitting an infinitive is more a matter of style than of grammar. So keep up the good work.

Englisc Says:
1/23/2007 1:28:22 AM

After reading "Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't be Wrong," I discovered the French don't hesitate to correct the French grammar of others (Such as children/foreigners, etc), because they are 'emending' and not 'criticising' one's grammar. As such, as a Primary school ESOL teacher, I feel at ease to 'emend' students' and colleagues' COMMON mistakes (like 'anyways' for 'anyway' or 'axe' for 'ask' or an utterance ending with 'at' when 'where' is in the sentence as well, already signifying location- "where's it at?") whilst I inform them I am 'emending' (correcting for ones betterment). That said, I lessen the 'awkward' moment of the situation, ...showing that I enjoy grammar, I'm there to help (tough! if you don't like my help), not criticise, and don't judge the speech of others, as I was in my mid-twenties before 'I' was 'emended' about 'ANYWAYS.'

Joe Says:
1/22/2007 5:57:06 PM

For remembering lay laid, how about comparing it to "say": Say something, said something Lay something, laid something -----

Roger Says:
1/22/2007 5:34:57 PM

Would you help promote the correct use of "its" and "it's"? It's really easy to get it right, but I see it wrong at least half the time.

Paul Says:
1/19/2007 10:42:09 PM

I believe there's *another* who/whom error, different from the one mentioned in earlier comments, in the podcast "Correcting Other People's Grammar."

The offending sentence, spoken by Mr Manners, is this: "If you do wish to correct the grammar of someone whom you truly believe would welcome and appreciate the correction, then start by asking them if it is okay to offer a suggestion."

I think the objective "whom" in this sentence should really be the subjective "who". To see why, omit the phrase "you truly believe" (which should arguably have appeared between commas) from the sentence.

Do you agree?

Ralph Leyland Says:
1/18/2007 1:20:04 AM

I also question the trend of "having" when it comes to temperature. "We have 45 degrees and it is partly cloudy." We have them? Where do we keep them? It *is* 45 degrees outside. The only time I *have* a temperature is when I get the flu.

Ralph Leyland Says:
1/18/2007 1:14:36 AM

I would of digged it be cause your teh bestest but I am not a member so there sight wood knot except my vote sorry I will registar later so I can.

Seriously, without people like you, we'd be seeing a lot more writing like my previous sentence. Makes your head spin, doesn't it?

You are not in the top 15 yet, but you *are* number two in the "up and coming" list. Way to go!

Ralph P.S. I did vote. :-)

Grammar Girl Says:
1/18/2007 12:13:15 AM

I think you mean "between" versus "among." Here is the link to that episode in the archives: Between Versus Among

Pam Says:
1/17/2007 11:29:03 PM

Dear Grammar Girl,

I love you! I am a New York, New Yorker living in France and I am attending a French law school. As I am bilingual, I tend to make americanisms in French and gallicisms in English, so I rely on your site to keep me correct, even if my speaking style is sometimes "off" and foreign-sounding.

Can you discuss the word "among", its opposites, functions and synonyms? (It's past midnight in Paris, and I just had a blank on the other "wrong" word I was explaining to a fellow student. It was something about US senators and I said "among" because it applies to people and not to objects: among people and not among rooms, or something like that. But I cannot remember the word I corrected (since I was coaching her English, I didn't need Mr Manners's sublety!) but while I think I'm right, I really don't know that I am...

Help! Feeling incorrect in Paris! Thank you! Pam

Maureen Says:
1/17/2007 4:49:03 PM

Hi Grammar Girl, I adore your pod casts! I have a quick question: my mother's pet peeve is misusing take vs. bring, i.e. take to, & bring from. Even when I concentrate on using these words correctly, I must admit, I am one of her greatest challenges. It seems as if many others share my ignorance. Any q&d tips for helping me mend my ways? Thank you. Your loyal fan, Maureen

Maureen Says:
1/17/2007 4:26:33 PM

Hi Grammar Girl, I adore your podcasts! I have a quick question: my mother's pet peeve is take vs. bring, i.e. take to, & bring from. Even when I concentrate on using these words correctly, I must admit, I am one of her greatest challenges. It seems as if many others share my ignorance. Any hints for helping me repair my ways? Thank you. Your loyal fan, Maureen

Luca Says:
1/17/2007 6:34:06 AM

Grammar Girl, Listening to the news, it is common to hear policemen or newspersons refer to a speeding car as a car moving "at a high rate of speed". Isn't speed a rate (miles/hour)? So a high rate of a rate does not make sense to me. This is not all: I just heard a newsperson referring to high temperature as a "high rate of temperature". Grammar girl, help me ot here. Am I missing something? I am an Italian-born American, so the chance for missing something about English is tangible. Thanks, --Luca

PS. Looooove the podcast

Wacky Lisa Says:
1/17/2007 6:31:24 AM

Hi, I just sent you a voicemail when my nerves kicked in. I've been listening to the show for a while and really enjoy it. Have you dealt with the issue of when to 'nor' as yet? It really tends to confuse me. Thanks, Lisa

Linda Mills Says:
1/17/2007 3:15:02 AM

http://www.podcastusermagazine.com DATE: 1/17/2007 3:15:02 AM Dugg!

Nicki Says:
1/16/2007 6:57:19 AM

Hi Grammar Girl,
Correcting friends' grammar is a bad habit of mine and this podcast was a huge help (well, I don't think it's a bad habit...they do). I have a question though...am I allowed to correct my classmates' grammar? I'm in college, so part of me feels like I should be able to correct them when they use incorrect grammar, because we're in a learning environment all the time, but I know it's irritating sometimes. So do I just shut up and take the compliment when someone says "your cool" or do I correct him?
Thanks!

Ankush Says:
1/15/2007 11:46:43 PM

Short,mannerful, sweet, simple and straight to the point. Following a "KISS" rule...(KISS stands for Keep It Simple Smart) !!!

Great...thanks.

paulino Says:
1/15/2007 1:56:57 AM

AM Oh! I have the opposite problem. I wish people would correct my grammar more often! I live in MN and people here are too "nice" for that. :-(

Clemntine Says:
1/14/2007 7:42:28 PM

I am in LOVE! I'm a home schooling grammar nerd, and I can't wait to assign your podcasts to my small, but in no way grammatically-inclined student body.

Mariana Says:
1/13/2007 8:56:24 AM

Ups, I read "Avoiding Wordiness". Sorry about the "I just wanted to let you know that I love your podcast" I left you a couple of posts above. :P -----

Grammar Girl Says:
1/13/2007 2:30:23 AM

Yes. See my comment above.

Liz Says:
1/13/2007 1:58:16 AM

I absolute love your podcasts. I have a question...

This is from your latest item .... A couple of people, who I won't name, asked how ... Isn't it "whom" I won't name? Just asking. Liz

Nikki Says:
1/12/2007 9:46:36 PM

I just wanted to make sure I understood the difference in usage correctly! Thank you!

Mariana Says:
1/12/2007 9:25:36 PM

Dear grammar girl,

I just wanted to let you know that I find your podcast very instructive and fun at the same time. As English is my second language I tend to make mistakes without even realizing about them. You, and the fellow listeners, bring up things in which I have never thought about, as they don’t buzz in my ear, as it would do in Spanish. The point is that I get to learn a lot with your clear voice and generous examples. There are things I still don’t get to manage, like the dashes and some punctuation stuff, but… No worries, it will come.

I love languages but in the last couple of years I turned out to be a “Grammar’s little butcher”. I’m Argentinean, I have been learning English since age 10. As I married a francophone guy and moved to Quebec for four years I ended up learning French. Then we moved to Spain where he learnt Spanish. We started our relationship in English, but now we both speak three languages. Unwillingly we developed a new hybrid language –functional but aesthetically stinky– named “Spanglench” in which grammars form all of them juxtapose into painteresque chaos. Your podcast helps to put some order in this grammatically incorrect word we live in.

Thanks a lot!!!

Mariana

Grammar Girl Says:
1/12/2007 9:03:56 PM

It should be "whom." I misspoke. I'll probably fix it next time I record.

Nikki Says:
1/12/2007 8:04:18 PM

Interesting...in the audio you use "who" in the following sentence even though the text says "whom": "Dr. David asked about how he can correct other people's grammar without losing friends or sounding like a snob. A couple of people, whom I won't name, asked how to deal with bad grammar..." What's up with that? It should be whom, right?

Billy Brame Says:
1/12/2007 1:33:30 PM

Thanks for the tips. I like Mr. Manners' (no extra s) subtle approach to correction. Calling people out on bad grammar can be dicey