Episode Transcript

Do I Hate Your Singing or You Singing?
Episode 192: October 09, 2009

Grammar Girl here.

Sometimes there’s a topic that doesn’t quite defy explanation but certainly gives one pause in the undertaking. Lucky us—that’s where we find ourselves today. “Why gerunds take a possessive before them.” Oy.

Before we get into what a gerund is and why it deserves special treatment, let’s hear about our sponsor.

I’m happy to tell you that it’s free audiobook time again, compliments of Audible, the Internet’s leading provider of spoken word entertainment. Be sure to get a free audiobook download of your choice when you sign up today at AudiblePodcast.com/gg.

What's a Gerund?

Let’s start with what a gerund is. It’s a verb form that resembles an adjective or adverb but is actually a noun. It’s one of the “-ing” forms of a verb. In other words, it's a noun that's trying to trick you into thinking it's a verb. The other “-ing” forms are those that are part of a complex verb form (the present progressive), and those that are participles.

So a verb ending with “-ing” can be one of three things: part of the present progressive, a participle, or a sneaky, dirty gerund.

Present Progressive

First let's dispense with the present progressive “-ing” form of any verb. It's important to understand the verb forms so you don't confuse them with the gerund—the noun form. Here's an example using the present progressive:

Ignatz is mowing the lawn.

It denotes a current, ongoing process. The subject is “Ignatz.” the verb is “mowing,” and the direct object is “the lawn.” “Mowing” is a verb. Done.

Participles

A participle is what we call a verb such as “crying” when it is used as a modifier. It can be an adjective, as in,

The crying man’s co-workers comforted him with apples.

Here, the adjective “crying” modifies the noun “man”: “the crying man.”

A participle can also be used as an adverb, as in,

The man ran crying out of the cinema.

Here, “crying” modifies the verb “ran,” describing how he ran: “the man ran crying.”

Gerunds

Now that we have the verbs out of the way, let's move on to gerunds. Here's an example of a sentence with a gerund:

Crying can relieve stress.

Here, “crying” is the subject of the sentence. You can see that it's acting like a noun because you can replace it with something that is more obviously a noun: “dogs.” “Dogs are clearly nouns, and you could say, “Dogs can relieve stress.” See how you can replace “dogs” with “crying”? “Dogs can relieve stress,” and “Crying can relieve stress.” “Crying” is a gerund; a thing that looks like a verb but is acting like a noun.

Gerunds and Possessives

OK, so now you understand gerunds. Let's build on that knowledge and figure out how to deal with possessives before a gerund. People ask about this a lot.

Here's an example of a correct sentence:

That baby’s crying is getting on my nerves.

You wouldn’t (or at least shouldn’t) say, “That baby crying is getting on my nerves,” for although the baby may be irritating you, the real source of your nervous irritation is the crying itself and, therefore, the subject of the sentence.

Alternatively, you might say, “That crying baby is getting on my nerves,” and then the baby is the subject of the sentence, as well as the object of your disdain, but “crying” is no longer a gerund in that sentence, it's become an adjective. You can tell because you can't replace ”crying” with a noun anymore. You can't say “That dog baby is getting on my nerves.” At least you shouldn't say that. It would mean something strange and different.

Anyway, back to “the baby’s crying.” It’s the crying, again, that’s the noun and subject, so the modifier needs the proper structure—in this case, a possessive form: “baby’s.” Whose crying is depriving you of your nap on the plane? The baby’s crying, that’s whose.

Let’s take another example, because this is a tricky grammatical issue. That’s why it’s so common to hear it said the wrong way—to the point that the wrong way sounds right and the right way sounds wrong. Hold steady, and do it the right way. Be brave.

Let’s say a colleague has agreed to take your work shift so you can attend a family event out of town. How would you express your gratitude? (Of course, taking that person to lunch would be a gracious gesture, but how would you thank your colleague verbally?)

“I appreciate you filling in for me, Myrtle,” would be the common, though incorrect, way of acknowledging the kindness. Though you might appreciate Myrtle for filling in for you –— and you certainly could express it that way — you really appreciate the “filling in” itself. Therefore, because it’s Myrtle’s filling in that’s the object of the verb “appreciate,” you would say,

I appreciate your filling in for me, Myrtle.

Similarly, you might say,

I love that tenor’s singing.

Much clearer this time, because the object of your affection is the singing, not the tenor himself. Whose singing do you love? The tenor’s. Maybe you’ve met this fellow, and he’s an insufferable lout, but his mellifluous crooning makes you weak in the knees. “I can’t stand that tenor, but I adore his singing.” Starting to make a bit more sense now?

Remember that the “–ing” form is a noun.

A Quick and Dirty Tip

Some people find it hard to remember, so here’s the Quick and Dirty (and, we hope, simple) Tip to guide you.

Differentiation is key. Are you appreciating or abhorring the person, or the deed? Almost invariably in this construction, it’s the deed. So, let the person own the deed.

The baby’s crying; the tenor’s singing; Myrtle’s filling in.

Those in the know will notice our saying it and writing it correctly.

Audible

OK, this week, Rob Reinalda from Ragan.com has a book recommendation for us:

“A New Earth” by Eckhart Tolle is a remarkable guide to reclaiming your true self from your “ego,” which focuses on your thoughts and worries about social and professional status, and your “pain body,” that part of you that feeds on internal and external anger. It’s such a freeing, uplifting book, and Eckhart Tolle’s narration helps you transcend your daily worries and long-held spiritual constraints. I wholeheartedly recommend it.

Thanks, Rob. It's a great deal for Grammar Girl listeners at Audible. Get your free trial at audiblepodcast.com/gg and choose A New Earth, or any one of Audible's 50,000 or 60,000 audiobooks, as your free audiobook to keep.

Audience Survey

It's been quite a while since I've asked you to tell me about yourself, so we put a listener survey back up in the sidebar of the Grammar Girl section of quickanddirtytips.com. If you could take a minute to visit the website and take the survey, I would appreciate it. Of course, we ask about your demographics, but there is also a free form section where you can tell us what you like and dislike about the show, and I really enjoy reading those.

Also, I'll be starting my book tour in a couple of weeks, and in that same sidebar is a sign up button for the free Grammar Girl e-mail newsletter. Sign up for that newsletter to get all the details about the tour and a free daily grammar tip.

Ragan.com

This podcast was written by Rob Reinalda, executive editor for Ragan Communications (word_czar on Twitter), and I'm Mignon Fogarty, the author of the forthcoming book The Grammar Devotional.

That's all. Thank for listening.


Comments (17) for Do I Hate Your Singing or You Singing? |  Subscribe to Comment

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Tom Says:
11/16/2009 8:20:20 PM
I believe that "gerundive" forms don't exist in English, however only because I remember the difficulty my friends had understanding it in Latin. Saying that, I only learnt of the word gerund while in Germany; being an English native limits my knowledge!
Rob Says:
11/15/2009 6:01:55 PM
What exactly is a gerundive? Does this exist in English grammar?
Igor Says:
11/14/2009 12:36:48 PM
You forgot "gerundive".
brown Says:
10/28/2009 8:47:58 PM
Hi, Grammar girl, Would you please tell me how to download the episode? I would like it in my iPod... I right click the "download" button on the top of this article, but there's something wrong...>"< I am not sure if it's the right way to download it.
Mihaela Says:
10/17/2009 8:00:13 AM
I hate (that) you're singing!! (in sense, I hate your choice to sing now...) Can someone tell me, is that sentence meaningful? I'm not native...
Rachel Says:
10/14/2009 11:53:26 PM
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Rob Says:
10/14/2009 7:50:06 AM
Hi Monica, I've never seen "I'mn't," but certain three-word contractions have been working their way into literature recently. I've seen shouldn't've, couldn't've and wouldn't've, I'd've, you'd've, he'd've, etc. I don't know if I'mn't will ever develop, because these sounds don't really flow together for a native English speaker; contractions develop in spoken English and I'mn't doesn't feel natural. Articles are always difficult, and they are most difficult in proper names, because they don't follow any rules. One rule that I've found helpful is this: when a name includes is based on some general word (states, kingdom, republic) combined with adjectives (united, democratic) or prepositional phrases (of Ireland, of China, of Korea) we usually need "the." Some countries are even really confusing for native speakers. In England, people tend to say The Gambia, but in the US we all just say Gambia!
Monica Says:
10/14/2009 7:05:33 AM
Salim, What's I'mn't?? I am not? That looks really akward and I've never seen this abbreviation. It's probably too much for a good understanding. The US is short for 'The United States of America' and The UK is short for 'The United Kindom of Great Britain and North Ireland' which are full names of the countries. You can also call China 'The PRC' which is short for 'The People's Republic of China'. I think we need to use 'the' in a full name of a country.
Salim Says:
10/14/2009 6:30:24 AM
hi dear. i have a question about the reason why we cannot use i'mn't in english. and the other is why we can use THE before states for example THE US or THE UK but never before countries like china sweden....
Rob Says:
10/13/2009 8:48:08 PM
Hey again Teri, I did understand your question. My answer is this: that phrasing is awkward. Whether or not you consider it "wrong" or "right" depends on the theory of grammar to which you subscribe, but if a student really pressed me for a rule, I would say it's simply wrong. Every grammar book I have used, along with every resource I've found on the internet (only a quick search, but it was enough to corroborate my instinct and experience), shows a present participial adjective in the same position (before the noun) as a normal adjective. The one notable exception to this rule is when the participial takes an object or is accompanied by a prepositional phrase ("The man running the marathon is my brother"). Of course, as I said, writers often break certain rules for effect. One situation I've seen more frequently is only immediately after a subject (never an object of any kind), and to be honest, I can't even find any legitimate examples of that online. I've been thinking that perhaps it could be a type of reduced relative clause (for example "the man who is on the stage" becomes "the man on the stage"), but still, every example I find illustrating this involves a longer participial phrase. I see examples like "the man swimming in the lake..." but none with just "the man swimming..." As you say, people have different experiences. I hear educated people (teachers even!) with perfectly functioning senses say, "I feel badly," on a daily basis. Likewise, I hear people say things like, "I don't like him smoking." Do people say it? Absolutely. Is it standard English? I wouldn't write it on any tests.
Teri Greene Says:
10/13/2009 5:17:11 PM
Ahkow, Rob: I agree that your alternate phrasings are correct. I'm just wondering if the phrasings I used were also correct. Whether they're less common or not. ...... If I saw a man running, I'd ask, "Do you know the man running," and that's the way I've heard it more often. If I were to say, "Do you know the running man," I might sound a bit theatrical or stiff -- though sometimes I'd say it that way for fun. People's experiences differ; maybe you hear it more often that way than I do. In my experience, if one of three tenors was singing and someone asked, "Which tenor is your brother," a common answer would be, "The one singing"; a very uncommon answer would be, "The singing one."
Kharyn Says:
10/13/2009 10:42:23 AM
what exactly is "melliflous crooning"?
Rob Says:
10/13/2009 8:00:12 AM
I think it's kind of hard to say that one structure is simply wrong and another right, especially when talking about adjective placement. Once you look at any form of creative writing, those rules tend to get broken left and right. Generally speaking, though, I think I'd agree with ahkow, that the participle usually precedes the noun that it modifies, except in situations where the modified noun is the subject of the clause, and/or we have a longer participial phrase: "the man sleeping on the couch is my uncle." Likewise, it would be okay to say, "i know the man sleeping on the couch." But I think it's awkward to say "I know the man sleeping." Theres now no reason to move the participle, and "I know the sleeping man" is much more common.
ahkow Says:
10/13/2009 2:04:15 AM
Hi Teri, If it is a participle, you should say, "I love the cooing baby but the crying baby gets on my nerves". "I hate the singing tenor." or "I hate the tenor who sings." Correct me if I am wrong, thanks :)
Teri Greene Says:
10/9/2009 8:46:23 PM
But sometimes we Are talking about the person, not the deed. Aren't we? We sure intend to sometimes. You yourself say, "ALMOST invariably in this construction, it’s the deed." Couldn't the verb form sometimes be a participle because we're talking about the person? What if the tenor's a lout but sings swell, and there's a conversation about the tenor in which you remark about the tenor, "I love the tenor singing but I hate the tenor silent"? "I love the baby cooing but the baby crying gets on my nerves"? ......... A different, maybe less ambiguous example: What if you're differentiating between people? There's a roomful of babies and you're talking about the babies and you say, "I love all them babies except one. The baby crying gets on my nerves." There's three tenors, and the two silent ones are nice folk and the one that's singing is a lout. "I hate one of those tenors." "Which one?" "I hate the tenor singing." In these cases wouldn't it be a participle, so tenor and baby wouldn't be in the possessive? ..... I always read your column. You give good grammar.
Eileen Burmeister Says:
10/9/2009 5:52:13 PM
Just hearing "mellifluous crooning" in a podcast makes me smile.

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