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Episode Transcript

Excessive Redundant Redundancies
Episode 18: October 08, 2006

Grammar Girl here.

Today's topic is redundant acronyms.

Some of you know that I'm a working writer. I've had some big deadlines over the last few weeks, so that's why there haven't been as many episodes out; but my work is always a huge inspiration for the show, and this week was no exception. I came across a great example of a redundant abbreviation.

I was writing about a scientific experiment, and I found myself writing the phrase PCR reaction; and then I realized that PCR stands for polymerase chain reaction, so I had just written polymerase chain reaction reaction, which is obviously redundant. Yet, I've heard people say it that way a lot: “They ran a PCR reaction,” or “After running the PCR reaction, transfer the amplicon,” or something like that. There's just something to the ear that sounds wrong about ending a sentence with that acronym, but it's the right way to do it.

So I started thinking about other abbreviations that lure people into redundancy. I've definitely heard people say PIN number, which is redundant because the n in PIN stands for number, so they've just said personal identification number number. HIV virus is another one that comes to mind. The v stands for virus.

I went searching and found a couple of websites that list a whole bunch of commonly used redundant acronyms and phrases, so I'll put a link to those in the transcript at quickanddirtytips.com.

The important thing to remember is that when you are using an acronym, take a second to think about what words it stands for so that you don't add redundant words at the end.

Poll Results

Next, the results are in from the Schoolhouse Rock survey. One hundred and twenty people took the poll and 45% said that Conjunction Junction was their favorite episode; 13% had no idea what I was talking about, and the rest of the responses were split pretty evenly between* the other choices.

Take The Survey

That's all. As always this is Grammar Girl, striving to be your friendly guide in the writing world. This week, I have a favor to ask. I'm trying to find a sponsor for this show, so that I can regularly put out four or five shows a week and put a dent in the backlog of listener questions that is increasing at a truly amazing rate. So, if you'd like to see more episodes, please take a minute to complete the listener survey on the Grammar Girl page of QuickAndDirtyTips.com. It's the blue box at the top of the sidebar that says Audience Survey. It's completely anonymous, and it will allow me to show potential partners audience demographics, which will really help a lot.

Links

* Between is the wrong word here; it should be among.

Comments (29) for Excessive Redundant Redundancies | Subscribe to Comment

nivek1385 Says:
8/9/2009 5:12:15 PM

I've been complaining about these for quite sometime and would just like to inject my agreement. --Chief Director in Chief, ROSA Acronym Division, Dept. of Redundancy Dept. P.S. ROSA Acronym is my term for these acronyms: Redundancy of Speech Acronym...Acronyms

Angelina Says:
3/23/2009 10:15:17 PM

Is it redundant to say or write "U.S. states"? For instance: "A study on food insecurity and hunger in communities among eight U.S. states identified low income as the number one predictor of these conditions."

Joe B. Says:
1/8/2008 12:15:00 PM

In my opinion the very worst redundancy has come to be much used since 9/11. The use of the term "year anniversary" needed to be used because the just-plain-wrong "month anniversary" of 9/11 was nearly instantly and universally adopted by the media, and seems to have stuck. Please make it go away! The Department of Redundancy Department, Toronto Canada

Discopants Says:
9/14/2007 2:24:42 AM

This has been an issue with me. I don't like redundant acronyms. A few years ago the U.S. DoD issued their Common Access Card (CAC) to replace IDs. Quickly everyone was calling it a CAC card. Of course to hear someone from Boston talking about his CAC could start to offend others in the area. I also wanted to share with your audience that the Austin Lounge Lizards (http://www.austinlizards.com/) did an entire song making fun of redundancies called "Big Rio Grande River." One of my favorite lines is "...watching the evening sun setting in the west."

ah the redundancy Says:
9/11/2007 7:41:35 PM

I thought this was a great topic. It reminded me of my last employment. I worked in a section of the airline industry called PMA maintenance. The funny thing here is that everything you read/talk about in the PMA world reads "PMA parts." PMA stands for Parts Manufacturing Approval. I always found this funny that people would state and write technical documents using PMA parts. Even funnier is that after a short time being employed there I found myself stuck in the same rut! Silly me.

Grammar Girl Says:
8/13/2007 4:01:37 AM

Please see the transcript about formatting vertical lists.

http://grammar.qdnow.com/2007/05/24/formatting-vertical-lists.aspx

Grammar Girl Says:
8/13/2007 3:59:28 AM

Hi, Tim.

Periods and commas go inside the quotation marks in the United States. It's reversed in Britain.

I agree that "preplanning" and "postplanning" seem silly.

I can see how the writing process is different from writing though. You could teach about writing by teaching language skills, whereas you could teach about the writing process by teaching how to avoid playing solitaire, why coffee breaks are essential, and when it's a good idea to join a writing group!

Tim Forkner Says:
8/5/2007 2:58:14 AM

I have a question regarding an expression I hear constantly. I am a teacher in Georgia, and the first few days of school for the teachers are called either preplanning or pre-planning, depending on the county. The final days of the year are called postplanning or post-planning. I always thought all planning was "pre-" by definition. Since one plans before doing what is being planned, does this make any sense? Post-planning (or postplanning) seems oxymoronic to me (well, really just moronic).

These are two examples of Georgian "edubabble" (my favorite neologism).

Another current practice that bothers me is adding the word "process" to every word ending in "-ing". Examples are "the writing process", "learning process", and every other "-ing" of which one can think.

What are your thoughts on these topics?

Tim

P.S. Did I use the quote marks correctly?

Chris Murray Says:
6/11/2007 10:26:30 AM

I only just heard this episode (because something changed in the RSS, causing many old episodes to be downloaded), and I'd like to mention a redundant acronym from Ireland.
We had a bank called Allied Irish Bank for many years, but then they decided to modernise its name by using its abbreviation AIB. However, they actually called it AIB Bank, which is obviously redundant, but the more correct "AI Bank" would have been misleading, particularly in a country where agriculture is still a dominant industry.

Tom Says:
4/24/2007 8:09:40 AM

I have to step forward in favour of the redundant acronym on syntactic grounds. Once a word disappears into a common abbreviation (such as 'virus' into 'HIV') I don't think it still has the same standing as it once did as a fully pronounced word. The abbreviation then becomes a single lexographic unit (i.e. word) for something. So HIV becomes the new name of a particular virus. Likewise PRC becomes the new name for a type of reaction. So these newly derived English words should behave like any other words of their class. We can have "an influenza virus" so we should be able to have "an HIV virus". Similarly, we can have "an endothermic reaction" so we should be able to have "a PCR reaction".

Likewise, words borrowed from other languages. 'Chai' may be the Hindi word for tea, but once it comes into English it ceases to denote 'tea' and starts to denote a particular (-ly delicious) type of tea and should take on the syntactic characteristics of other types of tea. Hence "Earl Grey Tea" is okay and "Chai Tea" is okay.

shellie Says:
3/29/2007 5:05:08 PM

can you please do something about using 'irregardless'? it drives me crazy to hear people use that non-word!!

thank you!

Scott Says:
3/10/2007 5:03:17 AM

Wow, this made me laugh out loud!

swlenz Says:
3/2/2007 11:44:38 PM

Hi GiGi:

I get a laugh out of redundant acronyms, but they should not be per se wrong. Don't forget the primary purpose of grammar is to convey your thoughts quickly and succinctly to your reader.

I think a better rule is to make it redundant if it will help the reader. Remember your audience: Is it a medical professional or a lay person?

For example, HIV has acquired secondary meaning. To the lay public, it refers to the disease, not the virus. Your reader may not realize that the "V" stands for virus.

If you write "HIV virus," the lay public will realize you are writing about not just any virus, but the specific virus called HIV.

Even though it may sound dumb, it makes sense. You'd write about the 'Polio, Herpes and HIV viruses' wouldn't you?

When the reason for the rule ceases, so should the rule. Use redundant acronyms if it will help your reader.

Joanne Says:
2/26/2007 9:58:43 PM

Also, the ER Room - Emergency Room Room. "With au jus" on a menu - "au jus" means with juice, so double your with. There are just so many to choose from!

Rick Says:
2/1/2007 6:34:47 PM

I share Lara Sherbin's sentiments about redundant acronyms.

I recall your example for units of measure. You said that the abbreviation for inches needs a period to distinguish it from the word "in." Saying PIN number is the verbal equivalent. Pin is a real word and appending number to it is a convenience to the listener. While it is redundant, it makes speech clearer.

Another example is PC. You have probably heard of PC Computing Magazine. It is redundant, but I think it is appropriate in this case for another reason - some acronyms clash. When I read an article about the pervasive PC environment, it takes a moment for me (as a techie) to realize that they don't mean personal computer, but instead, politically correct. I recognize the redundancy of "PC computer," but I appreciate that it makes the distinction clearly.

My vote is to use the appended redundancy when it is clearer, but reserve the right to chuckle about it now and again.

The bonus for using terms like PIN number is that it often forces pedantics to expose themselves. (tee hee)

Thanks for your delightful features.

Ben Holt Says:
1/26/2007 9:44:07 PM

I have been vexed by the proper punctuation used in enumerated lists where the items are presented vertically in the document. E.g.,
1. Aardvark
2. The school barbecue
3. Apply the paint to the entire wall

Some items are complete sentences and some are phrases.

Jeff G Says:
1/22/2007 10:18:00 PM

One of my favorite example of redundency is "The Los Angeles Angels". Los is Spanish for THE. Angeles is Spanish for ANGELS. So "The Los Angeles Angels" translates to "The The Angels Angels".

Grammar Girl Says:
1/8/2007 6:58:55 AM

The grammarian in me hates this, but at the end of the day I'm in favor of anything that reduces medical errors. Butcher the language all you want if it means you won't butcher the wrong knee!

Lara Sherbin Says:
1/8/2007 6:35:59 AM

Hi Grammar Girl. Love the show. Usually I follow your instructions religiously, but on this episode I have to dissent.
My husband is a medical doctor and I work in public health. Acronyms are very common in both our fields and often overlap in letters, but not meaning. Although this entire show is about redundant acronyms I find it very helpful when the last word is repeated so I know what the acronym is referring to.
I may be in the minority on this one, but I find the redundancy helpful in figuring out the true meaning of what the speaker is referring to. For example, AKA can mean Above Knee Amputation or Also Know As. This is a horrible example, but there are times, which I can not think of at the moment, when I have to ask for clarity and that takes more time than just repeating the last initial in its full.
Thanks and take care.

Mike Raynham Says:
12/14/2006 2:44:14 PM

Thanks for the topic on redundant acronyms. A while ago, New Scientist magazine ran a feature on this top in their Feedback section and called it RAS Syndrome, or Redundant Acronym Syndrome Syndrome. Clever!

On a similar subject, I would like to draw your attention to "The La Brea Tar Pits". Brea is Spanish for "tar", making "The La Brea Tar Pits" a redundant expression meaning "The The Tar Tar Pits" (an example of pleonasm).

Sri Says:
11/1/2006 4:50:29 AM

Though not an abbreviation, "Chai Tea" is a redundant phrase. Chai is the Hindi word for "tea." Therefore, "Chai Tea" = "Tea Tea." Always tickles me to hear people say this!

Chris Says:
10/27/2006 12:58:55 AM

Thank you Grammar Girl! I have been the sole "acronym enforcer" in my group of friends for too long. And I'm always sure to ask people to repeat themselves when they ask me for my "PIN number" or "SIN number" (another Canadian here). To parody that, my friend and I formed the YCYROC (Young Canadian Youth Redundancy Organization of Canada) back in High School.

Grammar Girl Says:
10/12/2006 10:46:29 PM

Yes! Someone else wrote me about "RAS Syndrome," which is a redundant acronym for "redundant acronym syndrome."

dshendler Says:
10/12/2006 9:45:15 PM

When I first began web design, I came across an acryonym that truly astounded me, and still does: PHP, which stands for "PHP Hypertext Processor". There's a rich history in the computing world of such recursive acronyms, going back to GNU, which stands for "GNU's Not Unix".

Crazy, eh?

Grammar Girl Says:
10/10/2006 5:02:07 PM

NOTE: I woke up in the middle of the night realizing that I had mistakenly used the words abbreviation and acronym interchangeably. The next episode will discuss the differences between them.

Grammar Girl Says:
10/10/2006 4:57:40 PM

ROFL

Scott M. Says:
10/10/2006 12:44:45 PM

In Canada, the main identifier for our federal government is the Social Insurance Number. The unfortunate acronym forces you to place an additional "number" in certain situations to avoid asking questions such as:

"What's your SIN?"

Grammar Girl Says:
10/10/2006 1:49:45 AM

Excellent!

Osric Courtier Says:
10/10/2006 12:21:26 AM

Love your podcast! Don't forget about the ATM machine ... or the common redundancies in my line of work: the LAN network, the NIC card, and WiFi wireless.