Episode Transcript

Who Versus That
Episode 24: November 04, 2006

Grammar Girl here.

Today's topic is who versus that.

Lesley called in with this question:

My pet peeve is who versus that, as in “You know Bob, he's the guy that sold me my car.” It drives me nuts. Or am I mistaken and it's just become part of the new English verbiage in the evolution of the language?

I kind of talked about this question in episode 7, but other people have also asked the same thing recently, including Corinne, so I thought it would be worth going into a little further.

The quick and dirty answer is that you use who when you are talking about a person and that when you are talking about an object. Stick with that rule and you'll be safe.

But, of course, it is also more complicated than that. The who-goes-with-people rule is the conventional wisdom (1,2), but, on the other hand, I did find a credible reference that says otherwise. I was shocked to see that my American Heritage Dictionary says,

It is entirely acceptable to write either the man that wanted to talk to you, or the man who wanted to talk to you (3). [emphasis added]

Wow. So I dug around some more and found that there is a long history of writers using that as a relative pronoun when writing about people. Chaucer did it, for example (4).

So, it's more of a gray area than some people think, and if you have strong feelings about it, you could make an argument for using that when you're talking about people. But my guess is that most people who use who and that interchangeably do it because they don't know the difference. I don't consider myself a grammar snob-–this is “quick and dirty” grammar, after all-–but in this case, I have to take the side of the people who prefer the strict rule. To me, using that when you are talking about a person makes them seem less than human. I always think of my friend who would only refer to his new stepmother as the woman that married my father. He was clearly trying to indicate his animosity and you wouldn't want to do that accidentally.

Finally, even if you accept the conventional wisdom, there are some gray areas and strange exceptions. For example, what do you do when you are talking about something animate that isn't human? That's a gray area, and it can actually go either way. I would never refer to my dog as anything less than who, but my fish could probably be a that.

One strange exception is that you can use whose, which is the possessive form of who, to refer to both people and things (5,6,7,8) because English doesn't have a possessive form of that. So it's fine to say, "The desk whose top is cluttered with grammar books," even though it is obviously ridiculous to say, "The desk who is made of cherry wood."

So now you understand the details, but you can also remember the quick and dirty rule that who goes with people and that goes with things.

References

1. Burchfield, R.W., ed. The New Fowler's Modern English Usage. Third edition. New York: Oxford, 1996, p. 773.

2. Lynch, Jack. Guide to Grammar and Style.  October 31, 2006. < http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/w.html> (accessed November 3, 2006).

3. The American Heritage College Dictionary. Third edition. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1993, p. 1540.

4. Burchfield, R.W. ed. The New Fowler's Modern English Usage. Third edition. New York: Oxford, 1996, p. 773.

5. Lynch, Jack. Guide to Grammar and Style. October 31, 2006 <http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/w.html> (accessed November 3, 2006).

6. The American Heritage Book of English Usage. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1996. <http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/049.html#POSSESSIVECO> (accessed November 3, 2006).

7. Pronouns and Pronoun-Antecedent Agreement. Hartford: Community College Capital Foundation, <http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/pronouns.htm> (accessed November 3, 2006).

8. Quinion, Michael. World Wide Words. 4 November 2000 <http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-who3.htm> (accessed November 3, 2006). 

Poll Results



Comments (43) for Who Versus That |  Subscribe to Comment

Bozo de Niro Says:
10/16/2009 4:53:43 PM
Read the comments above by Matthew and Lance, they make the most sense to me.
Rob Says:
10/15/2009 8:07:01 AM
I definitely agree with Grammar Girl on the two main points here: that both who and that are acceptable in standard English, but also that who just makes a lot more sense to me. There have been some people saying that "that" leaves ambiguity as to what the relative pronoun represents, and I just want to assert that this is absolutely untrue for one important reason: when the relative pronoun is that, it must always come immediately after the noun it represents, leaving no room for misunderstanding. "Which" is a whole nother story, as they say.
KS Says:
9/17/2009 12:50:02 AM
In the example given, is Bob a slave trader selling people ("Bob sold me"), or is he a car salesman ("Bob sold the car to me")?
Bob Says:
8/30/2009 4:18:30 PM
I agree that "who" rather than "that" should be used with people. I also notice, however, that you have said the following: "To me, using that when you are talking about a person makes them seem less than human." Since "a person" is singular, you shouldn't have used "them." Using "people" rather than "a person" would make the sentence correct.
spacrDemon Says:
8/29/2009 7:22:55 PM
Yes! Thank you for this confirmation! I thought I was going insane because I was the only freak who noticed!! People were using this bit of grammar distinction so frequently, I was beginning to think I had created this rule in my mind. But it's all good now. Ps. I should hope that the freaking dictionary gets it right...!
venkat Says:
7/13/2009 6:36:35 AM
We can use "that" only for "inanimate" objects and if anybody still doesn't considers himself/herself as a human can continue calling others THAT
ME Says:
5/24/2009 4:54:18 PM
I think most people know that who is for people and that is for the things, the confusion comes from not knowing what, or who, is the subject of the sentence. For example in 'the woman that married my father' people (including me) confuse whether the sentence is about the woman, a who, or marriage, a that.
mnc Says:
5/13/2009 3:20:26 PM
well, I was wondering about this because in French you use 'that' if the person is the direct object, and 'who' if the person is the subject. So is it the same in English?
Elizabeth Says:
4/16/2009 7:10:38 PM
I noted you made a grammatical error in your explanation. In the sentence you wrote,"To me, using that when you are talking about a person makes THEM seem less than human." You should have said HE or SHE as the pronoun is referring a singular noun, "a person."
Matthew Says:
3/11/2009 4:43:54 PM
While I am normally a "Grammar Nazi," I very frequently use "that" in reference to a person. The reason is this: it is not uncommon in the slightest for other languages to use their equivalent of "that" for people. In Spanish, for example, they prefer to say "el hombre que vive aquí." "The man that lives here." They do not say "the man who lives here." I may be mistaken, but I believe it would actually be incorrect to say "who lives here" in that context (in Spanish). So, I use them interchangeably for style and flow, as it is linguistically acceptable. :)
Glenda Says:
3/2/2009 5:02:00 PM
Re: The desk whose top is cluttered with grammar books... Wouldn't we say, "The desktop, which is cluttered with books...?
annabanana Says:
2/24/2009 5:20:55 PM
so i guess the question is: if you are talking about a character, is it a person or an object?
annabanana Says:
2/24/2009 5:08:55 PM
I would like to tell you after reading your first example about this, that the grammar-check on word, said my "who"s were incorrect and that i needed to replace them with "that"s!!! i think i will post those sentences so you can tell me if the g-c was wrong and I was right "A character (as in a character in a story) who the reader can get an understanding about..."
maurice Says:
1/8/2009 6:33:06 PM
The man, that you see in the garden is Bob, who is a bus driver.
Cynthia Says:
12/9/2008 10:38:05 AM
Dear Grammar Girl, If you were "Style Girl" your response to the debate about "who" and "that" would be correct. As things stand, your answer is wrong. "That" is a relative pronoun which can be used for both people and things. AP style recommends using "who" for people and "that" for things, but this is a matter of style only. Don't try to read a big psychological issue into a point of grammar, please!
emo Says:
12/4/2008 4:33:55 PM
I'm trying to come to grips with the question of: I wanted to thank the group WHO attended I wanted to thank the group THAT attended Which is correct?
CEM Says:
9/17/2008 12:10:27 PM
My frustration is with sentences that include both an inanimate noun and a human subject (e.g., "...the plan and Steve that..."). It would be inappropriate to use "who" with "the plan" and feels disrepsectful to use "that" with "Steve". Is there a happy medium?
MacLarin Says:
8/21/2008 2:30:39 AM
Sorry for below question. I've just read episode 84. It is now quite clear what to do with entities... Thanks again.
MacLarin Says:
8/19/2008 10:12:23 AM
Thanks a lot for the tips. They are very useful. I'm not a native speaker and have a question regarding "who", "that" and "which". In the tips we are often referred to humans, animals and sometimes animated objects, when "who" is the right choice. But what should we use, when it comes to companies (corporations), which (or who?) may be viewed as groups of fairly lively persons? Which form is correct: "Parent company who provided a loan to its subsidiary" or "Parent company that provided a loan to its subsidiary" or may be "Parent company which provided a loan to its subsidiary"?
Zheng Nai Says:
3/21/2008 2:30:42 PM
In fact, students of English as a foreign language are taught that it's perfectly okay to use that when referring to a person, provided that it's an informal context. I'm horrified to find their teachers have been wrong all along. And this whole issue of which/that/who makes me wonder why exactly we native speakers can't use our own mother tongue correctly, or at least without much wavering...I also consulted my favourite reference book (which I recommend for students) "Practical English Usage" - it says "We often use that instead of who or which, especially in an informal style." Often? According to the poll, most of you would disagree.
Jim Says:
2/22/2008 1:43:44 PM
Its more of the "Who-That". If you are writing about animals, especially in fiction and for instance, the animal is given human speech, is it all right to use who?
Sasha Says:
1/31/2008 8:15:00 AM
Thanks a lot for your quick and dirty tips; they are extremely helpful and easy to remember once one needs them!!!
Don Klepp Says:
1/24/2008 2:22:30 PM
I've suspected that many people use "that" to replace "who" or "whom" because they're not sure whether "whom" or "who" is appropriate in a sentence such as "The waiter who scowled is not the one who should receive the gift." My rules of thumb are simple: 1. Use "who" and "whom" for "whomans"; 2. Use "who" when "he" or "she" could have been used, and "whom" when "him" or "her" could have been used.
Helen Says:
4/25/2007 2:55:57 PM
Thank you for maintaining these transcripts. I remembered listening to you talk about "whose" and I thought it could be the possessive for an object. It was so easy to look it up here.
Judy Says:
3/27/2007 1:58:30 PM
Thank you grammar girls, this has been driving me nuts!!! The difference between that and who. if i remember my days of diagramming, who would definitely be used for a person because who modifies the person, and that would modify the thing, if you get my drift. as far as Shakespeare goes, i always considered that poetic license. if we use songs to explain our language we are in a"world of hurt."
Dana Says:
2/7/2007 12:10:54 PM
Shouldn't we aspire to say "Tom's the guy from whom I bought my car"?
Lance Says:
2/6/2007 3:13:28 PM
As I have been teaching English as a foreign language for a few years now, I am very familiar with the "who" vs. "that" conundrum. As far a grammar goes, the rules are very clear; in restrictive clauses "that" can be used as a relative pronoun for either people or things, but it can never be used as a relative pronoun in a nonrestrictive relative clauses. I teach my students to always use "who" for people and "which" for things if they are ever uncertain about whether they are dealing with a restrictive or nonrestrictive clause, but native speakers of English istinctively understand the difference. No native speaker would, for example, produce a sentence such as : "My mother, that lives in Miami, is coming to visit me this weekend." So, when dealing with nonrestrictive clauses we always use "who" when speaking of a person, but when dealing with restrictive relative clauses the choice of using "who" or "that" is really a question of style, not grammar. Of course, we also have the option of reducing the relative pronoun in a restrictive clause, as long as it's not the subject of the clause, and thus avoid the whole question of which relative to use, e.g. by saying "Tom's the guy I bought my car from," instead of "Tom's the guy that I bought my car from."
Meghann Says:
1/25/2007 3:07:44 PM
Outlook apparently doesn't listen to your podcast. I typed the sentence "I was talking to the women I work with who has Crohn's..." and Outlook told me that I should change my "who" to a "that." It's a good thing I listened to your podcast, or I may have been swayed to change to "that." Wouldn't that have been a sad fate?
David K. Says:
1/5/2007 8:48:54 PM
I agree: the use of 'that' should be consistent regardless of the subject. It should always signal a restrictive clause.
Twila Says:
1/2/2007 3:19:48 AM
Dear Grammar Girl: Would you please comment on the poor usage of the word "way". Just tonight on National Network TV, the news anchor said that federal judges could earn "Way more" working as lawyers or even teaching law. Of course, there is the commercial as well, "this is way more than a cruise." These are only two examples of this very bad usage of English that has assaulted our ears via radio and television script writers. What ever happened to "far," "much" and "very"? PLEASE address this and let me know if there is something that can be done to bring the English speaking media's attention to this awful habit! I shake my head everytime but more needs to be done!
CadeRageous! Says:
11/17/2006 10:57:15 PM
I have a passion to get the dashes used correctly, as I am a recent Communication Design graduate. Typography, the use of letter form, is my strongest and favorite form of visual design, so when I see dashes used incorrectly, I feel a little ill. I mean all dashes. The em dash, the en dash and the regular hyphen. (for example: -, –, —). I learned from a German typography instructor that I had, that in Europe the em dash is not used like it is here, but that aside, I think that most people lack the knowledge of when each is appropriate. I know this may make for a difficult podcast, since dashes are not ever spoken, but it might be nice to be addressed if you ever do a video cast, or blog on it.
Paul Says:
11/16/2006 8:27:10 AM
I was listening to an old episode on "who" v. "that"; and, I had an interesting yet inane thought concerning the example of corporations being a non-human entity which merits a "that". In Brazlian-Portuguese (and I caution that I am not a native speaker) tax forms refer to humans as pessoa física (physical person) and corporations as pessoa jurídica (legal person). I believe this use of a word that could loosely be translated as person being incorporated into corporate officialdom is present in a lot of Latin America as well as Western Europe. There was also a 2003 movie, "The Corporation," that adopted a thesis that if corporations were people they would be mentally ill. And, the original root of corporation is the past participle of corpus in latin. None of this commentary is meant to indicate that the podcast erred in anyway wrong, but rather I thought the cultural significance and variation carried in the idea of corporation is interesting.
Dana Says:
11/12/2006 11:47:32 PM
Someone who commented used the phrase "most comprehensive". Doesn't comprehensive mean that it's all inclusive or complete? Isn't the word "comprehensive" like the word "unique"? Something can't be very unique. I'd think something's either comprehensive or it isn't. What do y'all think? (By the way, I think y'all is a legitimate contraction, and should be adopted by the public at large.)
Steve Says:
11/12/2006 5:50:41 PM
I just discovered your podcast today. What a great discovery! I had always thought that the relationship between "who" and "that" was the same as the relationship between "which" and "that." So "who" would be used in non-restrictive contexts, "that" in restrictive ones. Is that just a false analogy? Thanks,
jennifer Says:
11/10/2006 3:52:23 AM
hi grammar girl, i love your show. i don't know where i can post a question for a future topic except here. but boy, just writing this little bit is filling me with all kinds of grammar questions! the one that inspired me to write, though, is this: i was under the impression when you talk about the title of a book or article you say " the article ENTITLED 'Nature/Culture/Words/Landscapes'" , but twice now, within this very article, i've found TITLED used both as an action: "Fisher titled a superb article 'The Nature of Nature'" as well as to introduce the title of a referenced lecture: "he gave a lecture at the university of illinois, titled 'Beauty, Meaning and Sustainability'". am i off my rocker, or should that have been "entitled"? or is "entitled" only used when people feel entitled? i'd love to know what you think about this. and keep up the good work!
JN Says:
11/9/2006 1:23:05 PM
Being fond of Q&D mnemonics, you might like the "rule of H and T" for this topic. These go together: sHe - He - wHo and these go together: iT - ThaT Keep up the good work! -jn-
Sean Says:
11/8/2006 8:21:38 AM
I didn't know where to submit a question for a future episode or to just be answered online if possible, so I decided to just leave a comment on the latest episodes transcript. My question is how and when to use the dash. I've seen it in many books and papers, but this is something I was never taught in school and really have no idea how to use it. Im not talking about a hyphen for compounds and that sort of thing; more often I see dashes used for some sort of appositive types of phrases or even similar to semicolons.
Bill Middleton Says:
11/7/2006 4:21:50 AM
I would like for it to be as simple as "who for people;" "that for things." Grammar is rarely that simple, however. Consider that old song "The Girl that I Marry." Does "the girl whom I marry" not sound strange to the ear? And what about "which?" That's only for things, right?
Graham Says:
11/6/2006 11:58:02 PM
Thanks Grammar Girl about the "that's" bit I put up because I think often there is confusion about when the apostrophe format is indicating possessive and when it is an abbreviation for "is" with the only guide being where the thing, that is his case, can possess. I had intended to suggest the "whose" form might be considered "poor construction" since the preferred would be "with." Just found your blog and enjoy it; I will have to see if I can gain back any of my former knowledge lost over the years.
Grammar Girl Says:
11/6/2006 10:14:07 PM
You could say the desk that's covered with clutter, where that's is short for that is because it is obvious that the desk top is what is covered with clutter. So, that may not have been the best example sentence. A better example might be the bike whose tires are green. Of course, you could still say the bike with green tires and avoid the whole issue.
Basilia Says:
11/5/2006 10:55:57 PM
This may not be the best place to ask, but when do you 'awhile', and when do you use 'a while'?
Graham Says:
11/4/2006 4:33:27 PM
Regarding the possessive form of "that" I would have used the possessive, "that's" rather than whose when referring to the desktop. Comment?
Eamonn (Dublin, Ireland) Says:
1/1/1900 10:14:16 PM
Hi GG Can you bring together your who/that and which/that explanations? Is "who" is the human version of both "which" and "that"? So says Jack Lynch in one of your links. But then we don't know whether "who" is restrictive or not. Why can't we use "who" as the human version of "which", and use "that" for people as well as things. To my ear, "that" sounds ok for people, but "which" doesn't. I love your show.

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