Episode Transcript

Who Versus Whom--Advanced
Episode 98: March 07, 2008

Grammar Girl here.

It was almost exactly a year ago when I did the first show about who versus whom. In that show I only covered the simple cases, and lately I've been getting questions that made me think I should delve deeper into the topic. So today's topic is who versus whom--advanced.
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Here's an example of the kind of questions that are coming in. Derrick from Oakland, CA, recently read a story in the Wall Street Journal about restaurants that offer tasting menus that pair wine with food, and he came across this sentence about the sommelier:
We never did meet his teammate ... who[m] he said works the room in his absence.

Derrick thought the whom seemed out of place and asked me to explain why. He's right, and I will have a quick and dirty tip for you, but first, I want to explain in grammatical terms why it should be who.

First, you have to separate out the clause that contains the who or whom. All you need to care about is how the who or whom functions within that clause.

In the example sentence--We never did meet his teammate who he said works the room in his absence--the last part (who he said works the room in his absence) is something called an adjectival clause. That just means the whole thing functions as an adjective to tell use more about the teammate. Who is the teammate? Someone who he says works the room in his absence.

The part that always seems to mess people up in clauses like that is the he says part. Someone who [he says] works the room in his absence.

It seems as if people see the he and think it might be the subject of the clause, but it's not. The good news is that he says is a separate clause within the adjectival clause, and you can just ignore it. It's parenthetical--an aside (1, 2). Take it out in your imagination as you look at the sentence or cross it out. Taking it out leaves you with the clause who works the room in his absence.
Web Extra

Here is the progression of how we whittled down this sentence to just the clause that matters for deciding whether to use who or whom:
We never did meet his teammate who he said works the room in his absence.

We never did meet his teammate who he said works the room in his absence.

We never did meet his teammate who he said works the room in his absence.

Now that you've whittled down the sentence to just the clause you need to consider, it's a lot easier to decide between who and whom. In fact, you can use the simple trick I gave you a year ago: if you can hypothetically answer the question with him, use whom. They both end with the letter m. If you can't answer with him, use who. The reason is that you use whom when it's the object of the clause, and him is an object pronoun that is easier for people to remember than whom. For some reason people just seem to know when to use he and him, but they have trouble remembering the difference between who and whom.

So if we go back to the example sentence, the clause is who works the room in his absence. If you answer that question, the answer is HE works the room in his absence. Since the answer is he, and not him, you know the correct pronoun is who.

You could actually use the same trick without removing the he said clause from the sentence. You could ask Who did he say works the room in his absence? And the answer would be He says HE works the room in his absence. But I think it helps to know you can take out he said clause. The same holds true for clauses such as the man who they believe is Sir Fragalot, the man who she determined is Sir Fragalot, the man who Squiggly claims is Sir Fragalot, and the man who I say is Sir Fragalot--you can just ignore the they believe, she determined, Squiggly claims, and I say parts.

I've put some extra information in the transcript for this episode at quickanddirtytips.com in case you want more information.
 
Web Extra

The parenthetical clause doesn't have to be just two words such as they believe or she determined. It can be longer, as in the following examples:
·         He is the man who Peter, Paul, and Mary heartily believe is Sir Fragalot.
·         He is the man who Aardvark believes with all his heart is Sir Fragalot.

If you add the words to be to the previous examples, it makes whom the correct choice:
·         He is the man who they believe is Sir Fragalot. (Who is the subject of is. The answer to the question, "Who do they believe is Sir Fragalot?" is "He is Sir Fragalot." He equals who; they're both subject pronouns.)
·         He is the man whom they believe to be Sir Fragalot. (Whom is the subject of the infinitive to be, and therefore it has to be in the objective case (2). The answer to the question "Whom do they believe Sir Fragalot to be?" is "They believe him to be Sir Fragalot." Him equals whom; they're both object pronouns. You can't remove they believe to be, it's not parenthetical.)

[I'm a little uneasy with my explanation on the final bullet. I have a credible reference, and I believe whom is the correct choice, but it's just not sitting right in my head. Listeners, do you have any thoughts on the matter?]

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Administrative Stuff

This week Legal Lad is talking about whether printed waivers on the back of parking stubs are actually binding. If you're not listening to his show, you're really missing out. He always seems answer a question about something I've wondered, but never bothered to investigate. You can find his show, my contact information, and all of the other great Quick and Dirty Tips podcasts at quickanddirtytips.com.

That's all. Thanks for listening.


References

1. Ryan, B. and O'Donnell, M. The Editor's Toolbox: A Reference Guide for Beginners and Professionals. 2001 Blackwell Publishing p.116-7.
http://tinyurl.com/2cblbu (accessed March 6, 2008).

2. Kittredge, G.L. and  Farley, F.E. An Advanced English Grammar: With Exercises. Boston: Ginn and Company, 1913, p. 139.
http://tinyurl.com/yr2xpw (accessed March 6, 2008).

Additional Resources

Lutz, G. and  Stevenson, D. Grammar Desk Reference. Cincinnati: Writer's Digest Books, 2005, p. 153-4.

Strumpf, M. and Douglas, A. The Grammar Bible. New York: Henry Holt and Company, 2004,  p. 281.

Comments (20) for Who Versus Whom--Advanced |  Subscribe to Comment

Robert Says:
5/5/2008 7:15:59 PM
In response to Mary, who in his right mind wrote write a sentence such as this? Why create problems? Why ponder the imponderable?
Mary Hero Says:
5/5/2008 3:54:52 PM
just found this website and, being a teacher, found it be be fabulous! I will take a closer look and probably subscribe but need to know more. But question about who/whom: He is the person whom/who they found to be a bore. WOULD IT BE WHOM? OR would I ask, Whom did they find to be a bore?" THE FOUND HIM. I'm not sure how to ask the question. I ask,"Who is a bore?" IT is HE, but somehow it seems it should be whom? AS IN THEY FOUND HIM BORING. PLEASE ANSWER
Robert Says:
5/4/2008 7:16:05 PM
From a strictly grammatical view, the article is correct, but what about: "I know who he gave the book to" for "I know to whom he gave the book" or, to use two examples from Wilson Follett's book on usage, "Who's kidding who [v. whom]" or "The matter of who asks who to do what."
rpmason Says:
4/8/2008 4:25:49 PM
Freddy, 'than' is a comparison. "Grammar Girl is correct more often than I am." 'Then' provides a time frame. "I went to the post office, the hardware store, and then to the movies."
rpmason Says:
4/8/2008 4:16:25 PM
Mark, rearrange the sentence to the "old fashioned" way. 'With whom did you go tramping?' The object is the answer.
DavidR Says:
4/2/2008 11:50:28 AM
Don't remember where I first saw this, but I can't resist: A lesbian who lived in Khartoum Took a homosexual up to her room The question arose As they took off their clothes Who did what with which and to whom.
Mark Says:
3/30/2008 1:19:07 AM
Which do we use in the case where there is no object, e.g. where both people are acting: Whom did you go tramping with? Or Who did you go tramping with?
Freddy Says:
3/15/2008 4:05:07 PM
I love your podcast! It's absolutely brilliant. It's short and to the point. However, I have one question; what is the difference between than and then? I thought I remembered a podcast about it, yet I couldn't find it. I couldn't find the email for grammar help, so I just decided to put a comment in here.
Grammar Girl Says:
3/11/2008 6:15:55 PM
Hi, Sharon. Thanks for your helpful explanation! I've corrected the initiating sentence in the Web extra.
Sharon Says:
3/11/2008 4:51:10 PM
Dear Grammar Girl, your final bullet point is correct. If, in most of your examples, you put commas around the "he said" clause, your sentences would read as follows: "We never did meet his teammate who, he said, works the room in his absence." (Note: this structure should also require a comma after "teammate.") Here it is really clear that the subjective-case pronoun "who" governs a finite verb. When a pronoun becomes the object of a verb like "believe," "think," or "consider," the following structure converts to the objective-case-plus-infinitive structure because those verbs require an objective case in pronouns. In your test sentence, "he is the man whom they believe to be Sir Fragalot," the objective-case pronoun "whom" is the object of the verb "believe," and must govern an infinitive. It's worth noting that the initiating question, "Who do they believe Sir Fragalot to be?" is incorrect. It should be "Whom do they believe Sir Fragalot to be?" The pronoun here is still the object of the verb believe. I wish my students would read this site!
John Says:
3/11/2008 3:29:04 PM
Constructions like "a person whom everybody admits is successful" was first called incorrect by Lowth in 1762. But there are examples of "whom" in constructions like these for over a hundred years before Lowth. Jespersen called these sorts of constructions natural. Lowth had to make an exception to his rule for "than whom", which he allowed even tho it went against the "than I" pattern. This might be an example of "who" with a preposition that GG asks about: "Who am I taller than?" "I'm taller than who?"
katrin Says:
3/11/2008 1:08:57 PM
thanks for a reply, grammar girl! i'm not a native speaker of english, but i teach estonian for foreign students (on the basis of english). and i often stumble upon these kind of "little" things, how to translate them into english correctly.. so, as i understood, "to who", "with who", etc, are totally incorrect versions? i think i know the subject/object - distinction very well (in estonian the object is MUCH more difficult than in english :)), but i have (had) always doubts when using who(m) with prepositions.. and - another question - is there a difference in using who/whom, when the preposition and who(m) are separated in a sentence? for example - * to whom are you writing this letter? * who/whom (?) are you writing this letter to? or the 2nd sentence is inappropriate anyway because it ends in a preposition? thanks a lot to all WHO have time and feel like thinking about it with me! greetings, katrin
Grammar Girl Says:
3/10/2008 5:49:59 PM
Hi, Katrin. You might be on to something. I've never heard it explained that you always use "whom" when you use a preposition, but I can't think of a sentence where you'd use a preposition and NOT use "whom." Can anyone else think of a sentence where you'd use a preposition, but you wouldn't use "whom"?
Michelle from MI Says:
3/10/2008 5:32:11 PM
I love your podcast! I just started listening to it and it is extremely helpful. I'm a junior in high school which means a lot of standardized tests, and your tips help me remember many of the rules I'm tested on.
nadhyani Says:
3/10/2008 2:04:53 AM
hai .... i have seen you on oprah's show too in indonesia, my problem : my grammar is bad more than bad ... can you help me? please ... thank's
ruly, indonesia Says:
3/10/2008 1:12:13 AM
haii mignon,.. i've seen u on oprah's show yesterday in indoneisa and that's was great!! i love the way that u explain and it made me understand to do that,.. cuz i know my grammar is so bad and we must practice it on the class whole of day,.. thank u mignon,.....
katrin Says:
3/9/2008 4:20:22 PM
but what about the prepositions and who/whom? for example: with who or with whom? to who/whom? for me it seems that whenever i use a preposition, it should be whom. am i wrong or right? thanks, katrin
Dan L. Says:
3/8/2008 1:53:46 PM
The solution to Darrell and Sean's problem would seem to be to clarify that the "trick" requires answering the question AS A COMPLETE SENTENCE. I'm sure neither Darrell nor Sean would respond "him works the room" (or more conversationally, "him does").
Sean from Seattle Says:
3/8/2008 1:54:20 AM
I have the same issue as reader Darrell. When I read the article and did the "trick", I asked myself "Who works the room in his absence?", and I answered "Him." Well, I enjoyed the article and will still use the trick as it seems to work most of the time. Thanks!
Darrell from CA Says:
3/8/2008 12:18:04 AM
The problem I have with your he/him test is I think too conversationally. If someone asked me, "Who worked the room in his abscence?" I would find it a perfectly reasonable answer to POINT at someone and say, "Him." I guess that isn't grammatically correct, but that's what trips me up. I need a test case for the test case!

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